Shoulda got a Mits.

So long as this thread has gone to sh!t, let's really piss in the pool.

- single engine jets suck; you suck if you don't agree
- parachutes on airplanes are for sissies
- LOP is bad for valves
- My Va is higher than your Va, and none of us know what the hell that means anyhow

Thoughts anyone?

Time to lock this one up, lol.

In a semblance of trying to get this thread back to something useful...

John, why did you decide to overhaul instead of just do a hot section and keep on flying? That seems what most part 91 operators are doing with PT-6s, and of course it drastically affects the operation economy of these planes...

Robert

I can’t speak on John’s case, but on my occurrence we had a 1900C that the right engine, I was fighting tooth and nail. Almost every flight was a new oil leak or wasn’t making numbers; it was nickel and diming the department to death.

After running the numbers from past work, lost flights and looking at possible future issues, it was cheaper to send the engine back to Pratt for an overhaul. The engine came back a month later and work perfect for the next 3 years, when the aircraft was sold.

Good Morning All,

At the risk of generating some confusion by actually posting on the original topic in this thread, I want to add that my experience with the S/II over the last couple years pretty closely matches what Theodore said above.

Support from the factory is great on the legacy birds, and the mobile service units can really be a life saver when you're AOG in BFE, but in my opinion, the Service Centers aren't the best place to maintain a legacy Citation.

As an example, we had a bearing failure on a SG a few months ago coming out of Denver. The failure screwed with our N2 enough that we shut down the engine and turned around, unsure of whether it was a SG issue or an FCU issue. This was on a Sunday, called legacy support, they had the MSU on site within two hours, verified bad SG, no replacement SGs on hand in Denver but Wichita could counter to counter one in the morning. Here's where it pays to NOT depend on the factory for everything... Cessna wants $16,000 for their SG (on exchange), Duncan can get us a SG just as fast and they only want $1,900! Obviously we went with the Duncan unit. Of course the MSU won't install the Duncan part so we ended up using a local mechanic and assisting him with the install (about $500 in labor). Everything was done and we were back in the air before 10am the next day.

As I said, support is great from the factory, but if you depend strictly on them, and allow them to do everything carte blanche, you're probably in for some unpleasant surprises. The owner / operator needs to be willing to take a proactive role in their maintenance, or hire a good management company. If they aren't willing to do that, then I don't think they have any recourse for complaining when they get hit with an astronomical bill from the shop. This holds true for every plane I've ever owned, from single engine pistons to turboprops to jets, the only thing that changes is the average number of digits to the left of the decimal at the end of the bill.

John IV

In a semblance of trying to get this thread back to something useful...

John, why did you decide to overhaul instead of just do a hot section and keep on flying? That seems what most part 91 operators are doing with PT-6s, and of course it drastically affects the operation economy of these planes...

Robert

Keith, my bad. I found your Badge picture!

Catch me if you can!

Is it even possible to hold an ATP certificate and not be multi-engine rated? Even if possible, how likely is it anyone would actually progress that far and not get that on the way? In one post, Mr. Gordon says his home airport is Eden, CO. I'm somewhat familiar with CO but wasn't familiar with Eden. Google couldn't manage to locate Eden, CO either. A quick look at the airman registry shows only one Gordon in the state of CO with any form of K or Keith in the name. An A&P in Florissant has that name. Of course, address listing could have been opted out. There is one Keith Gordon listed without an address that does hold an ATP but that Keith was already multi rated.

I'm only an infrequent poster here but I read everything. I really respect the body of knowledge available here. While Mr. Gordon's tale has been entertaining and amusing it really tarnishes the site. He should either come clean with honest answers, reveal his true identity as a prankster, or be removed/banned. Enough! I'm losing too much time checking back to see what he is going to say next.

I am guessing that he got in an debate about a topic in the past, and made up some credentials to backup his post so he could win the argument. Didnt think that it would come back to bite him later down the road, and now he doesnt want to answer any questions about or admit that he made up a story.

Sorry to continue an off topic theme, but in response to Jason. I do not know a Keith Gordon but I do know Eden, CO. It is what is left from an old railroad stop north of Pueblo, CO; originally about 5 miles out of town now a mile north of where I live. In the 60s when I was attending college in Pueblo there was a dirt strip at Eden. We used to fly a Champ out of there. About 10 years ago the strip ceased to be usable. Eden is most famous for a terrific train wreck.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eden_train_wreck

Eden Ranch (CO76) is in Hotchkiss Colorado, private airport SE of KGJT

3000 x 100 dirt strip Perfect place for a CJ4. But then again with his alluding to a $150,000,000 net worth I suppose it is just one of his multiple "home fields" and one of many many residences.

I never met an airline pilot with $150,000,000 net worth - but I haven't met all of them.

Keith said he married well.

Cut the guy a break.

Keith said he married well.

Cut the guy a break.

Let me reinforce what John said above: going to the Cessna Service Center is like going to a car dealer service center. When we purchased the KA C90 three years ago, we heard all the same stories. We found a great shop that services older KAs. Normally, we don't purchase factory parts and many times, service centers don't do inspections: they just replace with new. We actually have a shop that inspects and replaces as necessary with new, but not normally factory parts. A six-year gear inspection just cost us about half what the service center quote was. I have a friend that used the service center and it was twice what ours cost. He got his plane back quicker. We paid more labor, but didn't replace unnecessary parts that met requirements. We had longer down time.
I'm just getting into the Citations, but have some knowledge. Fella here just had a phase V done on a Citation V I looked at. It was $80,000, but the fella isn't price sensitive and did everything recommended by a top shop. Our shop wouldn't have replaced everything they did and wouldn't have used factory parts. There is an LOA for Citations one can get that allows the inspections to have the time period doubled if they are flown less than 150 hours a year, hangared, and comply with some other basic requirements: so, the dreaded phase V inspection is spread over a longer period of time for low time users.
OTOH, many of these have old avionics that need to be upgraded. Getting RVSM LOA issued isn't cheap, and one is flying a plane that would be multi-million dollar if new. So, new plane parts won't be cheap.

Lots to consider. But, as anything, a lot of variables. Nice thing about legacy Citations, parts are prolific and there are a lot of used parts for older planes out there.

Best,

Dave