Anyone reading this that is considering overhauling JT15-5A’s please note that you should budget at least $1M for the overhauls, if you were extremely fortunate and they came in at $800k you’ll be happy… of you budget $800k and they come in at $1.2M you’re going to be very unhappy.

That's not common.

The most common plan is to fly past TBO and only do HSI.

I've literally never had that come up. I get "direct to Foxtrot" after I reach or pass Bravo. I've never had a future segment of a route changed on me.

Mike C.

You are going to have be more specific.

What day? What ATC facility? LiveATC doesn't do frequencies, they do ATC sectors.

From what you said, GRNCH5, you are before ELITE, and they said "reaching ELITE go direct BUGGZ", correct? And then AFTER that, they put you back on the arrival at MAYYR, COAXE, GRTNG, or GRNCH, yes?

That is, you would have to reload those waypoints if you deleted them for ELITE direct BUGGZ. if they didn't put you back on the arrival, no issue, waypoints deleted, and you didn't need them.

If they did put me back on the arrival, that would be trivial for me. Flight plan, select the arrival, reload it, select waypoint, either direct or activate leg depending whether they said direct or join. No waypoint typing at all, just reload the entire procedure.

If you have any concerns for a full route clearance, type it all in, save it, now you can reload it just like the arrival.

Mike C.

Doing a hot section on your own engine doesn't require any market availability of used engines. Buying used engines obviously does. Very dig difference.


In theory, yes, but you get a lot of good hours for low cost this way.

There is also the chance, maybe, that someone comes along with a lower cost jet engine retrofit. If there are a lot of legacy Citations out there, maybe the market pull will be enough to see that happen. At one time, I was hoping Honda might do something like that.

In any case, my current rate of flying gets me 15+ years of flying before my next HSI times out. At that time, my engine will still be in reasonable shape for an overhaul (parts have enough cycle life left for a full TBO period). That would be 5700 hours of flying for about $500K (one OH, two HSI), or $88 an hour per engine, which is quite decent. That's half the cost of the Williams program, for example.

Whether legacy Citations get overhauled or scrapped will be a market decision. If, like the present day, they are in demand and replacement options are very expensive, they will get overhauled and keep flying. If they are worth very little and people can buy other things that do the same job for less money, then they won't. Either way, I'm okay. In the first case, my plane is worth overhauling since I will get back much of that in market value. In the second case, I will be able to buy a lot of spare parts to lower my operating cost due to ample supply of retiring airframes. Thus I am in good shape no matter which way the market turns.

Mike C.

“That’s not how we do it in the Seven-Three!”

I do get that regularly, what I don't get is the go backwards on the flight plan after the change. That I have never had.


Exactly, there are a lot of things that can change at any waypoint. Speed, altitudes, heading, etc. I'm always keeping n mind my next waypoint and my time to fix, plus any changes that need to be done at that waypoint. I'm having a hard time imagining not being aware of the next waypoint and relying on my flight plan to save me.

In any case, on, off, and back on an arrival is trivial with the GTN, just reload it.

Mike C.

I've develop a "direct to box" approach for much of this.

If ATC says "contact..." I reach over and hit the standby frequency box, and then dial in the numbers as they speak them to me. Then I read back what I typed in. Pause briefly, then hit "XFER" to put it directly into active.

This is faster than finding paper and pen and more accurate since you avoid a two step transfer (ATC to paper to box). You avoid that "is that a 1 or a 7 I wrote down?" confusion, too.

It is always just one touch to get to the frequency entry box on the GTN, so I find I am fast enough to do this without getting behind.

I do the same for a heading, I have dedicated knobs for that with my GCU 485, I dial it in, and read back what I dialed. Same for altitude.

This direct to box approach saves time over any two step process.

The direct to box approach does not work for a GNS 430/530. The "twist knob" method of entry is too slow. It works for a GTN since it is a direct numerical keypad. The responsiveness of the GTN also helps (I have the Xi versions which may be better in this regard).


That is exactly when you need to be most accurate and your brain is most likely to forget.

I try to do the direct to box approach every time and try to rely on my short term memory as little as possible.

Mike C.

I do get that regularly, what I don't get is the go backwards on the flight plan after the change. That I have never had.


Exactly, there are a lot of things that can change at any waypoint. Speed, altitudes, heading, etc. I'm always keeping n mind my next waypoint and my time to fix, plus any changes that need to be done at that waypoint. I'm having a hard time imagining not being aware of the next waypoint and relying on my flight plan to save me.

In any case, on, off, and back on an arrival is trivial with the GTN, just reload it.

Mike C.

FYI, Memphis Approach likes to do this. I fly into KAWM (Inside the MEM Bravo) every year for my 61.58. As part of the clearance they give you an "enter controlled airspace on XXX heading" but then once you contact Approach they will give you a "fly XXX heading to intercept MEM radial XXX." Caused me a scramble the first time as I wasn't ready. Now I have the MEM VOR loaded ahead of time. So SoCal isn't the only one that likes to do this

You used to be that fencepost. You sound jilted.

You used to be that fencepost. You sound jilted.

Doing a hot section on your own engine doesn't require any market availability of used engines. Buying used engines obviously does. Very dig difference.

There are many work arounds to the missing “next waypoint” feature. It’s still a feature that’s desirable and useful when you regularly run into these situations.

ATC there has the Elvis4 permanently plastered to their screen, and assumes you do too.