I've literally never had that come up. I get "direct to Foxtrot" after I reach or pass Bravo. I've never had a future segment of a route changed on me.

If it did, I would make a mental note to go direct at Bravo. I could also look at my ETE to Bravo (displayed on the flight plan) and set a timer. Say it says 3:20, just set a timer for 3:15 and now you have a reminder.


I can reload the procedure in about 3 seconds, then direct Delta. You also reload a procedure if there is a runway change, so this is kind of normal.


Where? I'd be curious where this happens and how it actually goes down over the radio.

Mike C.

This is nice in theory, and I have used it a few times.

But in a busy sector, it fails to work. Each new audio clip is pushing the one you want further into the past, and you get interrupted by each new one arriving. Too fast, too many.

A VERY simple feature would make this much more helpful. If you could optionally filter the incoming audio clips based only on the ones that immediately preceded your transmissions, then those are far more likely to be a message for you.

The next level would be some speech recognition to sort them by your tail number, or even speech to text transcriptions. We aren't there, yet.

Mike C.

Mike, I had this happen twice yesterday in the Phenom. After NELLO, cleared direct Destination, which removed three waypoints between NELLO and the destination and I was probably 5 mins from reaching NELLO when they provided the reroute.

There is a feature missing on some small planes’ FMS/GPSes, which is “next waypoint” which leads to the conundrum. Imagine the following. I am flying a departure procedure which consists of the following waypoints:

Alpha
Bravo
Charlie
Delta
Echo
Foxtrot

I’m headed to alpha, and ATC says, “after Bravo, cleared Direct Foxtrot.” If I cannot highlight Bravo and designate Foxtrot as the next waypoint, I have two choices: wait until I reach Bravo and then hit Direct To Foxtrot (and potentially miss doing this because of workload), or I delete the waypoints in between.

The problem arises if I delete the waypoints and then ATC says something like, “for traffic, proceed direct to Delta and continue the departure.” Ooops. I deleted everything and now need to reload the departure. Annoying in the least; a pain when things get busy.

There are a couple airports I fly out of on a regular basis where I get the “After B cleared direct F” clearance in a plane that doesn’t have the “next waypoint” feature. It’s a PITA.

Can you get new engines? Can you interchange the engines between different models in the series?

As a general rule, planes don’t get BER because of a lack of spare parts, they get BER because of a lack of affordable engine options. As the values of the hulls drop and the cost of overhauls increases the definition of “affordable” will get more restrictive. This happens to EVERY plane, not just Citations.

My prediction for the end of useful life in America for the legacy Citations is more than ten years, but less than 30. When the vending machine runs out of engines, the fleet is done.

I think I’ve got at least a 50% chance of buying one in the next 5 years, but I won’t expect the next generation to fly it.

I've literally never had that come up. I get "direct to Foxtrot" after I reach or pass Bravo. I've never had a future segment of a route changed on me.

If it did, I would make a mental note to go direct at Bravo. I could also look at my ETE to Bravo (displayed on the flight plan) and set a timer. Say it says 3:20, just set a timer for 3:15 and now you have a reminder.


I can reload the procedure in about 3 seconds, then direct Delta. You also reload a procedure if there is a runway change, so this is kind of normal.


Where? I'd be curious where this happens and how it actually goes down over the radio.

Mike C.

Just yesterday I got through 2 of 6 waypoints when ATC said direct destination. Even in the 430 this is dirt bag simple. And no waypoints are erased.

I can't see the touchscreens that much better: Freq change done on standby yes twist and turn; big deal; heading change via bug and altitude by an altitude bug on the altimeter. And usually repeat back ASAP as radio's are almost always jammed down here in Florida.

A simple go direct “now” isn’t the scenario. They all do that easily and don’t delete the previous points.

Mike somewhere around 17:27z on 133.32. N581QS. So listen for execjet581. I believe it was after ELItE go direct BUGGZ. We were still a ways from ELITE. GRINCH 5 arrival.

You got a clearance that changed a route segment that you are not yet on, and then it got changed again back to the waypoints you removed?

And this happened twice in one day?

Never has happened to me, ever, in 4000 hours of IFR flying.

If this is an arrival or departure, then I would delete the waypoints not being used on the first change, and then reload the entire procedure on the second one. You have time on the first change since you are not yet to the place where the change matters (otherwise you'd be going direct). A procedure reload is a few seconds.


Those both sound like SID/STAR procedures which are really easy to reload.

If it was a full route clearance with a bunch of waypoints, not as easy, but you initially have to go direct to ONE waypoint first, so enter that and get going, then fix up, staying one leg ahead at least.

If this really concerns you, save the flight plan in the navigator. Now a reroute back to original waypoints is easy, just reload, select waypoint, go. I'd do this if you have a non procedure complex route. No big deal to save a manually entered full route.


Set a timer. My flight plan will tell me ETE to any waypoint.

I am always aware of my next waypoint and how much time I have until I get there and any changes I have to make once there (like altitudes). To not be aware of that is problematic in more ways than just this route issue.

Mike C.

You are going to have be more specific.

What day? What ATC facility? LiveATC doesn't do frequencies, they do ATC sectors.

From what you said, GRNCH5, you are before ELITE, and they said "reaching ELITE go direct BUGGZ", correct? And then AFTER that, they put you back on the arrival at MAYYR, COAXE, GRTNG, or GRNCH, yes?

That is, you would have to reload those waypoints if you deleted them for ELITE direct BUGGZ. if they didn't put you back on the arrival, no issue, waypoints deleted, and you didn't need them.

If they did put me back on the arrival, that would be trivial for me. Flight plan, select the arrival, reload it, select waypoint, either direct or activate leg depending whether they said direct or join. No waypoint typing at all, just reload the entire procedure.

If you have any concerns for a full route clearance, type it all in, save it, now you can reload it just like the arrival.

Mike C.

Someone who buys a 1978 Bonanza doesn't ask that kind of question. Why should it be different for a 1978 Citation 501?


Many of the parts can apply to multiple engine versions.

For example, the HT blades in my JT15D-5A engines are the same part in the -4 (Citation II), -4B (Citation SII), and -5 (Beech 400). So I can find serviceable used HT blades in the market. The -5D engine (Ultra) is different, however.


They are Citations flying that are 50+ years old. N501RT, SN 500-0001, is still flying. Flew this Sunday.


Not necessarily. Engines can be inspected, overhauled, and built up from parts.

When the Citations hit the owner flown market like mine, they don't put on that many hours per year, so engines can last a very long time.


I'm sure people 20 years ago said the same thing.

The planes are durable and well built. The engines are robust and simple. They will be flying for a very long time.

Mike C.

Because the stated plan of many citation operators is to buy replacement engines instead of overhauling. This is because the value of the plane is less than the overhaul cost of all the engines. The Bonanza is worth more than the overhaul cost of all the engines.

Not 30 years total, 30 years from today. That will make them 80 years old, and I predict that will be the end of their economic life in America.


What would the cost be for you to overhaul both of your engines, and how does it compare to the current value of your aircraft?

I’m sure they didn’t.

That's not common.

The most common plan is to fly past TBO and only do HSI.


That's true for a great many turbine airplanes.


Overhaul both is about $800K, my plane is worth about double that.

Mike C.