One of the main reasons the PC12 and TBM have been so successful is that people are too lazy to get an ME rating. It's as simple as that.

Not true Adam,

Most PC12/TBM owners I know including myself transtion from a piston twin.
We want more speed, range, performance and utility that a piston twin does not offer.
Personaly if I was buying a jet it would be a twin and I would want to fly it at FL410.
There is no market for a low and slow jet. The SF50 is a toy.













One of the main reasons the PC12 and TBM have been so successful is that people are too lazy to get an ME rating. It's as simple as that.

Very nice new Bonanza sorry Sirrus jet . You can not compare SF50 with CJ and Eclipse is a different animal , also i know this is not Mu 2 . In the future aircraft like this it will replace the piston airplane . I think Cessna need to stop the production of Baron 58 and start make a small jet for 700K

[youtube]https://youtu.be/WWBupWRSft8[/youtube]

Bullshit.

Further: both of your examples actually OUT-perform equivalent TP twins...

... whilst Cirrus promises to under-perform the competition

The guy only has two stripes... Does he pour coffee?

No jet is that.

Type rating.

Initial operating experience.

Mentoring.

Yearly type training.

Engine and airframe programs.

Maintenance tracking.

Maintained on a program, not annualed.

Life limited parts.

This is NOT an SR22 where you can be flying on your own with a checkout and then yearly annuals.


Another reason the dream will die.

The regulations, rules, and expectations around jets is just not compatible with the Sunday afternoon flyer. You need to be committed to being a jet pilot and owner or bad things will happen.

The idea is that having one engine makes the plane simple. In reality, the number of engines doesn't matter that much, it is a jet, and flying a jet is complex. If anything, having one engine makes things more complex.

Mike C.

The dream of a low cost personal jet will never die because of sentiments like this.

Every time you go to Oshkosh, you are bound to find at least one exhibitor attempting to bring us the low cost personal jet.

The thing is, they never seem to actually exist, and the companies doing this work keep changing. Odd, isn't it?

Mike C.

I have an ME rating. It was the easiest rating I got.

I would expect the SF50 to have a simplified maintenance program. Maybe a 6 month or 100 hours minor check and a 12 month "annual".

Training can't be simplified much but maintenance can be. Williams will still require cycle tracking. Sloppy maintenance tracking by a SF50 owner can kill the value of the aircraft.

SAVVY and others can make a business of managing SF50 maintenance. Same as the way many turbojet owners have their planes managed.



No jet is that.

Type rating.

Initial operating experience.

Mentoring.

Yearly type training.

Engine and airframe programs.

Maintenance tracking.

Maintained on a program, not annualed.

Life limited parts.

This is NOT an SR22 where you can be flying on your own with a checkout and then yearly annuals.


Another reason the dream will die.

The regulations, rules, and expectations around jets is just not compatible with the Sunday afternoon flyer. You need to be committed to being a jet pilot and owner or bad things will happen.

The idea is that having one engine makes the plane simple. In reality, the number of engines doesn't matter that much, it is a jet, and flying a jet is complex. If anything, having one engine makes things more complex.

Mike C.

Cirrus has streamlined piston ownership. Its a one-stop shop. A perspective buyer does not have to log onto Beechtalk for a year to figure out how it all works. He just talks to a salesman, insurance and financing are lined up, maintenance is straightforward, training is straightforward....its something they have perfected over thousands of transactions.

Buying anything else in the price range will not provide the same soup to nuts experience.

Ok.. As I wish this thread would die, it continues to make me ponder everything Cirrus and Beech.. Maybe we are making assumptions that start with the SF50 being the last jet Cirrus is planning on producing..

They are marketing genius over there.. Maybe they have a roadmap of bigger, faster, better in the pipe that hasn't been talked about.. Maybe this SF50 is the MB ML350, and the ML500 is coming in the next 10-15 years through modifications to the existing plane..

Cirrus makes a fine product.. (if you like parachutes and single engines) They also are nice people.. I don't imagine they'd ever have a pricebook with a $1200 coffee pot, ever.. (I recall seeing that on BT for a KA coffee pot replacement in another thread in the last week)

Even if the SF50 is a toy.. It's a toy that is "better" than the SR22.. It gives someone a great story to tell their buddies at outings.. (I own a jet, and fly it myself) And probably, it gives the entire VLJ industry a great deal of excitement that as a SF50 owner gets more confident - they too will realize they want to climb to FL410 - and will transition into something else..

Adam - I disagree with you about the ME training. It was by far, the easiest. I think people buy PC12 and TBMs because they get a great product, for a great price. (both acquisition and hourly) I think there are a lot of different people in the world. I don't know Jason well, but I imagine Jason never contemplates the possibility of an engine failure in his TP airplane.. It is why he can fly a single engine TP around and probably never worry about failure.. But there are other people in the world, who have spouses that require two engines to run in order to get into the airplane.. Personally, I worried constantly about an engine failure in a single engine piston airplane.. Now that I have a twin, I worry if an engine fails - I need to respond accordingly..

But if I was honest w/ myself.. Why do I want a jet? Why do I want a Duke? Why do I sit on his forum and read all these posts? Because flying is cool. Owning a Duke is cool. Owning a jet is cool. Owning a TP, single or twin, is COOL!

For a Cirrus customer base flying an SR22, owning a SF50 will be fricken cool. Period. That will be enough to keep them in the air. That will be enough for the SF50 to be successful.

I don't know how many of you have gone through the new airplane buying experience, but it generally sucks IMO. I have gone through the process with Beech, Piper, Cessna, and Cirrus.

Go to OSH, the Cirrus tent is like a rock concert, the rest are like an old age home, or arrogant, or in some other way unattractive.

Cirrus people IME are upbeat, positive, love aviation, and have a "can do" attitude.

Look at this thread, we have "people" arguing that the best aircraft on the planet was designed in 1956 and NOTHING better has ever come along or likely ever will.

I have flown quite a few aircraft and I would say that the GV SR22T was the most impressive single piston I've ever flown by a large margin. Admittedly it took them some time to get there, but they did it.

If they would have taken the attitude I see so often on this thread they would have just closed their doors or left the small GA market like nearly everyone else has already done.

I may not be a Cirrus owner, but I'm really glad they're around. They are the ONLY company that seems to be innovating in this space and by doing so dragging others along.

Sorry Adam, but this is a rather disingenuous statement.

SF50 on Flightaware

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N252CV

I don't know what pilots you think will buy the SF50, but I'm pretty sure it's not ATP types or seasoned multi engine IR twin pilots. It's self made men who have more money than time, came to aviation later in life when they found success. Probably started with a SR22. These guys and girls ain't got time for check rides and ground school and ME training, they're far too busy. And they don't like to be judged anyway because they're type A personalities. They're PPL's with an IR, mainly.

Path of least resistance to a jet, the SF50. It's not like it's between a Mustang and a SF50 for these customers. It's between a SR22/Meridian/TBM and a SF50.

Be interesting to se how many SF50 owners have ME IR ratings eventually. I would think much less than 50%. I'd take a $500 bet with anyone right now that that will be the case, although it will be hard to prove statistically (I can't find ME or ME IR statistics in FAA databases - anyone have a good link?).