I have a 185 and a Citation. No comparison re which one requires more skill to land and tie down.

James needs to see Leigh Smith in Indiana. Do not pass go do not collect $200. See him stat!

viewtopic.php?f=47&t=167533&hilit=Leigh+smith&view=unread#unread

Went back and watched your(MH) video’s training with Leigh. Why oh why did I sell the 185?

It definitely gets much easier with time and the difficulty landing them is part of what makes flying them so fun. I think part of mastering the Skywagon is knowing that you are not immune to ground looping no matter what level of experience and being extremely diligent during all phases of the landing. No shame in going around and flying isn't over until it is tied down or hangared.

Beautiful airplane - Congratulations!

I don’t know, but I’m glad you did!

Stu

So as not to get an OWT started, I must comment.

As TW airplanes go, I do not consider the 180/185 to be that prone to ground loops. Certainly not like a Cub and most certainly not like a 195.

That being said, bad pilots seem to be able to ground loop almost anything. My 180 was ground looped early in its life. I am of the opinion that there are DEFINITELY pilots who lack the reflexes to fly a TW airplane.

The 195, for instance, will try to GL on almost every landing. There are two points at which you will have to input rudder to keep it from swapping ends. I find no such point in a 180. That being said, poor geometry of the landing gear of the airplane can make it twitchy, but that is true of any TW.

The challenge to the 180/185 is the spring gear. It wants to skip on any landing. During the skip, a ground loop can easily be brought about by inappropriate rudder inputs.That and landing in a crab. But, I see those ground loops as pilot, not airplane, induced.

Admittedly, I don't know **** from Shinola and may ground loop on my next TW flight, but, so far, in 61 years of flying TW airplanes, I have yet to experience an unintentional ground loop.

Jg

I’ve had a tailspring let go in my Champ and, fortunately, went off the runway into the grass after we’d slowed down. No damage but I was sweating the runway lights.

Just to clarify. I have demonstrated a many intentional ground loop at speeds where the Cub would not ding a wing tip. When training my boys at ages 9 and 11, I would even let a slow ground loop unfold just so they had the feeling of what was happening.

One time, I was flying in the Cub with John Jr. I think he was eleven. we were landing on a wet grass strip at my old construction office. As we slowed, I saw that he was going to lose it and decided that it would not tip on a wing. We slid off the runway into the swale filled water at the edge of the strip. I emphasize the word "slid". The side/spinning g-force was enough to kill the engine and when we stopped, sitting in three inches of water, headed the opposite direction, and steam coming off the exhaust, John took a deep breath and sighed, "I hate when it does that."

Jg

In the words of Curtis hisself: "There are no squirrely Pitsses', just squirrely pilots".
I would encourage a visit to see Bud Davisson in Scottsdale, to get a good immersion into landing the Pitts Special. Once you master that, you can land everything from a Knight Twister to a grossed-out DC-3 in a nasty crosswind and a short, narrow strip.

Best,

TN

I’ve had a tailspring let go in my Champ and, fortunately, went off the runway into the grass after we’d slowed down. No damage but I was sweating the runway lights.

contrary to a nose gear, don´t chop the power and flare. Fly it to the runway with a little power and when the front wheels touch down gently push the yoke forward to prevent the bounce. I find that if I am not at 60 KIAS over the fence I will bounce. At proper speed I get none, or a little bounce.

This is what has worked for me.

Rgs,

Patrick.

Patrick,

I agree. I was giving a new 180 buyer a demo flight the other day and did chop the power just to show the difference. It is amazing just how fast you have to be on the flare to keep from bouncing.

I usually use what I call the missionary position, taught by the missionary organizations that use the 180/185. Wheel landings with 14" MP. Three points are almost impossible without skipping on the spring gear. I also agree completely with Tom Navar's post. Learn to fly a Pitts and everything else seems easy.

Jg

Ah, that’s what it’s called! Concur, that’s a great way to roll on a 180. They can be really nicely rolled on tail low as well, particular on grass, from a power-off flare and an interrupted three point in my experience.

Will take plenty of crosswind, but surprisingly, less than the 120 IMHO.

At the risk of repetition, but in the spirit of sharing:
Another Jungle Aviation and Radio Service trick from the times when avgas was cheap and conventional gear was conventional:
Steal 50% of the energy from the "Boing-a-Matic" gear by planting the upwind main gear just a bit before the other. As you gain proficiency and confidence, you can, in a strong cross-wind, land and carry the upwind gear planted on the grass, dirt or macadam. With judicious use of the ailerons and rudder, the downwind main gear is gently lowered to mother earth.
Then you can taxi to the tiedowns, dismount, don your sweat-stained Stetson, and, with civility, tip it to the onlookers on your way out.

Best wishes for the New Year,

TN