Chip

Mikes not the one that has made it seem that you are the High end top dollar approach guy. You have. You have been giving many examples of things that show which side of the spectrum you are on.

Which is fine. What you do is valuable and I can tell you have a lot of satisfied customers.

You cant be all things and yourself admit Mike is not your target customer. Neither am I. Which again is totally fine. Mike is a major outlier.

Tarver has shown how a guy can buy and sell legacy citations really well. My experience with Tarver was great and I am confident that he saved me money that you would not have. Again thats OK because not everyone is looking for legacy Citations.

I do High end Home low voltage. I will be very expensive for the DYI guy. Thats not my market or who I make my living off. I deal with high net worth guys that want to pay me a premium to get the best system and support. They are paying for insurance in a way to make sure they get the best. For me to go into a DYI AV forum and starting telling all those guys they should hire me would be silly. My offering is not for everyone and neither is yours. Its OK.

Mike

The price is really for the PMA

Absolutely agree!

And yes, as far as prebuys, we do primarily use the "gold plated shops" like Textron, Stevens and West Star for Citations and King Airs, and do so for numerous reasons.

Certainly don't want to come across as trying to sell you, Mike or anyone else. We're blessed to have a full load of clients, there's no desperation here. My motivation on Beechtalk is to make sure the full picture is painted, especially for guys who are not like you and Mike. A lot of people use Beechtalk for a resource, when I saw some incomplete info being shared I filled in the blanks, everything that happened after that was an attempt to discredit me and my assertion that things will cost more on these legacy Citations than you think. It all began with the assertion that you can operate a 560 cheaper than a Meridian and that is simply false. But, don't take my word for it, operate one for five years and you guys will know firsthand. Please don't come back with more arguments, the V is a great airplane, I love it, but some of the cost of maintenance thrown around here will not stand the test of time.

It's not about right or wrong, or different perspectives, it's about providing accurate information to the hundreds of people who will read this thread.

In the early 2000's I was one of three partners that started an aviation battery company, we wanted to get a Hawker AGM battery approved for light GA aircraft, you can't imagine the time and expense that went into just getting a huge company like Enersys to co-brand a product with us! Hawker / Enersys had an approved turbine battery, so the approval part should have been easy. We were able to secure the exclusive rights to sell that battery to the GA market in North America with our name on the battery, we spent years and a small fortune just trying to get PMA approval on one battery, when we should have been done, the FAA said "we want you to redo all of the vibration testing"

If you take the cost of getting any PMA part approved and divide it across the number of units sold, you'll see quickly why things are so expensive. I'm all for safety, but the cost is driven more by bureaucracy than safety.

Oh, and sorry we hijacked your thread! I wish it was under a different heading.

Absolutely agree!

And yes, as far as prebuys, we do primarily use the "gold plated shops" like Textron, Stevens and West Star for Citations and King Airs, and do so for numerous reasons.

Certainly don't want to come across as trying to sell you, Mike or anyone else. We're blessed to have a full load of clients, there's no desperation here. My motivation on Beechtalk is to make sure the full picture is painted, especially for guys who are not like you and Mike. A lot of people use Beechtalk for a resource, when I saw some incomplete info being shared I filled in the blanks, everything that happened after that was an attempt to discredit me and my assertion that things will cost more on these legacy Citations than you think. It all began with the assertion that you can operate a 560 cheaper than a Meridian and that is simply false. But, don't take my word for it, operate one for five years and you guys will know firsthand. Please don't come back with more arguments, the V is a great airplane, I love it, but some of the cost of maintenance thrown around here will not stand the test of time.

It's not about right or wrong, or different perspectives, it's about providing accurate information to the hundreds of people who will read this thread.

Good list, I’d add Martin at SNA to it. Great shop does good work and willing to work with owners like Mike to get costs down.

Agree with this, and these can be great discussions and eye opening for someone considering the jump, I went from Piston Single to Twin Turboprop because I can't make any sense of a piston twin, cabin class or smaller, especially when you start counting your chickens and looking at ownership costs

Jet ownership isn't appealing to me, I don't live or operate regularly in an area where everything is 700-1000 miles away, if I was, I would just move to a better area

I watched a Citation V on flight aware that did one of my regular routes, he was at 56mins flight time, and I see 64-65mins on average, 10mins for double the fuel? No thanks

I think of the plane's utility in exactly the opposite way. I get to live *exactly* where I want and yet still get to the places I need to be. I have or have had properties in VT, FL, OR and southern CA. The plane lets me pick *any* place in the CONUS to live and still do what I need to do.

Jet ownership *is* appealing to me, but I'm choosing not to do it at this time.

Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks, and different planes for different gains.

Nothing is stopping you from getting into the business of making after market Citation parts.

Love to see you make one for $6K. That's $5900 profit for you, right? Go for it.

Mike C.

The Citation 500 and 525 series doors are delicate. They do work, but you should never let anyone other than reliable crew close them. My document briefing, my in person briefing, and my audio briefer all say that, but I still get passengers occasionally trying to open the door right after the engines shutdown.

One of the reasons to park nose into the wind is to keep the door from flying open and damaging the hinge. I handle the door with care.

This door design is on all the small cabin Citations other than Mustang and CJ4. The Mustang was a ground up redesign, and that DNA was used for the CJ4.

My MU2 door is a bank vault by comparison. I wish the Citation door was better, but it works well enough.

Mike C.

The Citation 500 and 525 series doors are delicate.

If your dominant usage is short routes, then the jet doesn't work that well. You don't save much time. You do get more comfort and safety, however.

I bought a jet because I was flying long distances and fighting headwinds in the MU2 was getting annoying. That's right, 300 knots was annoying when flying into a 120 knot headwind all day to get to the west coast. That's 1600 nm. It sometimes took 2 fuel stop, 3 legs, to get there.

Your logic could be used to justify a Bonanza instead of a King Air, not that much more time.

Mike C.

$20K.

It is listed in their 2023 catalog.

That's not the door, though. The "step ladder" is fine and I don't mind it.

Mike C.

Over water? Night departures? Icing? Carrying pax?

No thank you! Love the KA

All the reasons I fly a jet now.

The passenger experience and safety improvement is tremendous.

Mike C.