How often does a twin jet go OEI Allen? You train and train for it and think of many scenarios and what you would do but I have to think that's an exceptionally rare occurrence. Is there any data available on that for jets, especially bus jets?

I am not sure that is the way things will play out. Upgrade options are developing for the Proline 21 Citations to Proline Fusion or Garmin G3000. The market has a way of responding to the needs.

History shows airframes can be re-engined and avionics upgraded as long as there is enough demand.

My friend captained QR241 (Airbus with a load of passengers) when an engine functionally failed. As I recall they where over mountainous terrain when they could not hold altitude on one engine. Rare occurance but needs to be thought out.

Cessna, Williams and Pratt have the data. It happens but they fly fine OEI so you never read about them.

CJ2+/CJ3 Williams engines have had #2 bearing problems that caused in flight shutdowns. They also had Fuel Delivery Unit problems where when reducing power to descend an engine would flame out. Once you descended below 25,000' in the restart envelope the engine could be restarted. Both these problems are known and there are service bulletins to fix them but they are typically done at HSI or OH. So lots of engines flying with known problems.

Pratt engines in Mustangs are having starter/generator bearing failures. Pilot may feel the vibrations in flight or see wacky amp readings. That will cause an engine shutdown. Mustangs are also having heat exchangers fail and cause high ITTs and a shutdown.

There are also precautionary shutdowns happening due to low oil pressure or high ITT's, May be a sensor issue or a bleed air leak. All sorts of things could prompt a pilot to shut one down. I would probably fly past the storm before I did a precautionary shutdown.

If you look at drift down charts you'll see there is no reason to panic. You can go a lot of miles before getting down to single engine ceiling. The bigger problem is usually pressurization. Older airplanes can't always hold the cabin so you might be rushing down even if the charts said you didn't have to.

In the old TWA 727s, we'd have turn close the cargo heat outflow valve (puppy killer) anytime power was pulled back or the packs were weak. No way those planes would hold the cabin on two.

I am not sure that is the way things will play out. Upgrade options are developing for the Proline 21 Citations to Proline Fusion or Garmin G3000. The market has a way of responding to the needs.

History shows airframes can be re-engined and avionics upgraded as long as there is enough demand.

Really you make a judgment without any data to back it up. It will climb at around 1000 FPM and be totally controllable feet on the floor. You really should try it its amazing in my book. I agree its poor technique but if I have a brain fart at the worst possible time I will be fine and you in your Mits not so much.


I spend countless hours at FL250-280 in smooth air hearing airliners getting beat up in the 30s. It all depends on where the air is shearing against itself. You know it is a bad day with the 737s are cruising at my altitude to get out of turbulence, which happens from time to time.

Not really. The avionics upgrade cost may be 10% - 20% of airframe/engine value. Better economic value than many piston avionics upgrade cost to airframe value ratios.

Link or it didn't happen. :-)

Mike C.

There is no history of upgrading integrated avionics like G1000.

The planes getting upgraded don't have integrated systems. The burden in replacing an integrated airplane is that the system touches almost everything on the airplane.

With non integrated airplanes, each piece stands on its own. Autopilot, instruments, radios, engine gauges, fuel system, environmental, etc, are all separate.

Mike C.

The SF50 will change that.


All engines have problems and weak spots. We simply don't know all of them yet for newer ones.

Mike C.

They will get to the G1000 in time. Full Proline 21 integrated avionics aircraft are now being upgraded to the G3000. Cessna calls it their CJ2+ Alpine Edition upgrade.

Collins is working on the Proline 21 to Fusion upgrade.

If G1000's can be installed in Citations and King Airs they can be replaced when the time comes. It is only a question of market demand and business case, not technical feasibility.

Sorry, not bull. I rarely fly IMC in cruise. That's fact.


No, the airliners are asking to descend into smoother air from the 30s. It happens sometimes they prefer to go down into the high 20s to get it.

Mike C.

No question about that, the issue is that the regulatory barrier is high to replace the central nervous system of the airplane, so only a select few types will get this effort and the cost will be high.

Meanwhile, a more general non integrated approach like the G600 will be far more economical and accessible for the non integrated airplanes.

Mike C.

Not following. If you can retrofit a King Air to G1000, what would be the barrier to taking a G1000 to a G3000?