BeechTalk - BT - Cessna Citation 500 Series vs Citation Jet 525 Series

Username Protected · **Posted:** 02 Jul 2018, 20:23

Username Protected wrote:

Great gouge Jeff. That's really the secret of staying ahead of the jet's speed and acceleration; known pitch attitude targets to achieve what you want. I forgotten many of them for the planes I flew, but the takeoff rotation target pitch is pre calculated to give you V2, then 10 degrees clean gets 250 knots, the 5 degrees 300 knots, and 2 1/2 for level cruise flight, for the 747.

Most new jet trainees blow right though all of the speeds on the first flight. I know I did in the Lear 23 coming from flying 402 commuters. No simulator, first takeoff at 100% power. Before I knew it, we were doing 300 knots at the other end of the runway, with the instructor having got the gear and flaps before I could blast through those speed too.That's where you realy apply the principle of pitch and power.

The Boeings can get down a lot better than the old DC-8's could having flight spoilers. But I have a rule on the use of flight spoilers. If you have to use them because of an ATC screw up, fine; but if you have to use them because of your own screw up, the next round at the bar is on you.

I loved seeing the expression on a trainee’s face the first takeoff in a 20 series Lear!

I had the same thoughts about spoilers flying the Lears and Falcons too, other than to keep the engine power up for sufficient anti-ice on the Falcon. Not so on the Airbus, those things will not slow down and descend at the same time without the boards.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 02 Jul 2018, 20:44

...like the Learjet pilot who replied, "Unable," when asked by ATC to slow down or descend (don't remember which). Controller inquired, "Don't you have speed brakes?" Pilot answered, "Speed brakes are for our mistakes, not yours."

Username Protected · **Posted:** 02 Jul 2018, 22:26

Username Protected wrote:

Great gouge Jeff. That's really the secret of staying ahead of the jet's speed and acceleration; known pitch attitude targets to achieve what you want. I forgotten many of them for the planes I flew, but the takeoff rotation target pitch is pre calculated to give you V2, then 10 degrees clean gets 250 knots, the 5 degrees 300 knots, and 2 1/2 for level cruise flight, for the 747.

Most new jet trainees blow right though all of the speeds on the first flight. I know I did in the Lear 23 coming from flying 402 commuters. No simulator, first takeoff at 100% power. Before I knew it, we were doing 300 knots at the other end of the runway, with the instructor having got the gear and flaps before I could blast through those speed too.That's where you realy apply the principle of pitch and power.

The Boeings can get down a lot better than the old DC-8's could having flight spoilers. But I have a rule on the use of flight spoilers. If you have to use them because of an ATC screw up, fine; but if you have to use them because of your own screw up, the next round at the bar is on you.

I loved seeing the expression on a trainee’s face the first takeoff in a 20 series Lear!

I had the same thoughts about spoilers flying the Lears and Falcons too, other than to keep the engine power up for sufficient anti-ice on the Falcon. Not so on the Airbus, those things will not slow down and descend at the same time without the boards.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 02 Jul 2018, 22:27

Username Protected wrote:

...like the Learjet pilot who replied, "Unable," when asked by ATC to slow down or descend (don't remember which). Controller inquired, "Don't you have speed brakes?" Pilot answered, "Speed brakes are for our mistakes, not yours."

Username Protected · **Posted:** 02 Jul 2018, 22:34

Username Protected wrote:

Jets themselves are easier to fly but ATC asks a lot more from them than piston twins. Getting assigned a multi-step-down STAR with speed restrictions rarely happens in a piston. Slowing down in a jet isn’t as easy as a piston either.

Single pilot in a jet (250+ hours in) is a handful for me sometimes, most flights are cake but sometimes I get pretty busy.

That's understandable John. If you flew 80 hours a month your proficiency curve would really steepen on the way to a high level of proficiency, but flying 100 to 200 hours a year it's just slower progress that may plateau below a level of top proficiency. Outside of emergencies, the STARS and SIDs are the real challenges, especially in a single pilot jet.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 03 Jul 2018, 09:13

With the new avionics the STAR and SIDs are easy to do.
Altough we dont get to do them often in a TP.
More often they tell me to slow down for the Jet.

Username Protected wrote:

Jets themselves are easier to fly but ATC asks a lot more from them than piston twins. Getting assigned a multi-step-down STAR with speed restrictions rarely happens in a piston. Slowing down in a jet isn’t as easy as a piston either.

Single pilot in a jet (250+ hours in) is a handful for me sometimes, most flights are cake but sometimes I get pretty busy.

That's understandable John. If you flew 80 hours a month your proficiency curve would really steepen on the way to a high level of proficiency, but flying 100 to 200 hours a year it's just slower progress that may plateau below a level of top proficiency. Outside of emergencies, the STARS and SIDs are the real challenges, especially in a single pilot jet.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 03 Jul 2018, 11:09

Last month I took my team to Disneyland for the day. We rented a second CJ2 and bought a few airline tickets as well. I took off just before Darin (the other pilot). It was a short 1 hour flight and we both had the same routing onto the DSNEE3 STAR. One of my guys was really excited to about the ride so he sat next to me and had lots of questions. I also knew that Darin (he was my mentor pilot) was right behind me and was going to ride right up against the barber pole and if he had to slow down because of me, I'd be getting %#$@ from him all day. Socal controllers are awesome but they keep you hopping. Lastly the marine layer hadn't cleared out so we'd need to shoot the ILS into SNA. So between a chatty PAX, multi step down STAR, keeping within a knot of MMO and not wanting the horn to go off, short flight into busy area & shooting an approach, I didn't have any extra cycles.

Of course I could ask my PAX to be silent and I don't need to fly against the pole but I wasn't overworked or dropping any balls. I was doing fine, I'm good at programming and following the magenta snowflake (vertical guidance for the STAR) and I enjoy the challenge of flying as fast as I can. My PAX was good about stopping his questions when I got a call and rose my hand. But I was smiling because it was funny (to me) how busy I was and thought it was kinda cool that one of my team got to see it.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 03 Jul 2018, 11:55

I got the DSNEE arrival after a last minute reroute/arrival change. In the middle of a controller change, a freq change, a turn, and a last minute altitude restriction I nearly got violated as the “ARM” button was not pressed. I had mistakenly written off the step when I saw the altitude set in the box. Twice during BPT training in the Bonanza awhile later I missed “ARM” as well, but didn’t miss altitudes.

Goes to show GREAT training (Bill Hale) in anything really will find your weaknesses and help you rewire the brain. Set and ARMED! Train on.

Busy arrival. Nice work John. Good on ya for treating your people too.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 03 Jul 2018, 22:17

Username Protected wrote:

I got the DSNEE arrival after a last minute reroute/arrival change. In the middle of a controller change, a freq change, a turn, and a last minute altitude restriction I nearly got violated as the “ARM” button was not pressed. I had mistakenly written off the step when I saw the altitude set in the box. Twice during BPT training in the Bonanza awhile later I missed “ARM” as well, but didn’t miss altitudes.

Goes to show GREAT training (Bill Hale) in anything really will find your weaknesses and help you rewire the brain. Set and ARMED! Train on.

Busy arrival. Nice work John. Good on ya for treating your people too.

Nice of you not to tell the truth that I messed it for you. Lesson learned...either be all in as SIC or all out. Picking and choosing what you do is not helpful. :oops:

Username Protected · **Posted:** 03 Jul 2018, 22:39

Username Protected wrote:

Picking and choosing what you do is not helpful. :oops:

I think you guys need some CRM training. :cheers:

Username Protected · **Posted:** 03 Jul 2018, 22:43

Username Protected wrote:

Picking and choosing what you do is not helpful. :oops:

I think you guys need some CRM training. :cheers:

Username Protected · **Posted:** 03 Jul 2018, 22:46

Username Protected wrote:

Nope. We just need to do as we were trained.

This was a case of me letting Jesse fly it single pilot and then when stuff got busy I helped a brother out by doing somethings but not all things that an SIC should do. I set the altitude but didn't press arm. My bad.

That's part of learning to fly SP. Keeping one eye on what the passenger touches.

Either the person in the right seat is a passenger or SIC crew. There should be no middle ground. Part of CRM is managing that transition.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 03 Jul 2018, 22:59

Username Protected wrote:

Nope. We just need to do as we were trained.

This was a case of me letting Jesse fly it single pilot and then when stuff got busy I helped a brother out by doing somethings but not all things that an SIC should do. I set the altitude but didn't press arm. My bad.

That's part of learning to fly SP. Keeping one eye on what the passenger touches.

Either the person in the right seat is a passenger or SIC crew. There should be no middle ground. Part of CRM is managing that transition.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 03 Jul 2018, 23:55

I totally agree Allen. It is hard to fly with a half-in SIC.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 04 Jul 2018, 11:15

Username Protected wrote:

I just watched a video of an early CJ being upgraded with two GTN750s and a N1 computer, and can fly all the gpss approaches. Apparent the CJ1 and CJ1+ with proline cannot upgrade easily.
Well at least when the vid was shot.

JETTECH obtained STC approval for a dual GTN 7** installation in May of last year. It makes for a great panel, WAAS / LPV and of course ADS-B Out.

Roughly $130k

This may be a repeat, I didn’t have time to scroll through 32 pages to check! :peace: