I was at a shop recently, they severely damaged the airplane I was there to look at, while I was there. They made it very clear that no photos were to be taken, and asked us to leave.

They sure didn't have the "oh well insurance will take care of it attitude" I'm not saying they didn't have insurance, but I'm guessing they don't.

The reality is the inspections on this level of aircraft take the man hours they take, there's only two ways for a shop to lower their price and that's to lower their overhead or cut corners on the inspection. Can XVY shop do it 20% cheaper than Textron? Sure. Can they do it for 50% less... no way. For the same workscope, same quality and no increase in exposure?

No. Ain't happening.

Each mechanic gets paid $40 - $65 an hour, parts cost what they cost, rent and insurance, there simply isn't enough margin for anyone to charge double.

Original poster has decided to buy a boat instead.

If you want to pay "Gulfstream dollars" for your work, go ahead. Many do.

I experienced this recently with my AOG hydraulic issue. $8000 later, I had a simple hydraulic line replaced when using a shop focused on the big iron. Same repair at my local shop would have been maybe $1500.


Why would anyone want to go to a shop that did those two seriously bad things to one airplane? That's very concerning.


I suspect the large shop process of making you "whole" was not painless.


Perhaps. It does seem to be mostly about generating fear of going elsewhere than any true operational advantage.

But when you are dealing with a small cabin Citation, it just isn't in the same class. The entire plane isn't worth the wing assembly on a Hawker 850XP, and my small shop carries enough insurance to cover that. Thus I would have been made whole if the same issues had occurred on my plane in my small shop.

Except I expect the wing could have been repaired instead of scrapped. The Citation SRM (structural repair manual) has lots of options that perhaps the Hawker manual does not.

And there's the option of finding a salvage wing assembly, too. Probably no way you can do that for a Hawker 850XP.

Owning a legacy Citation is culturally closer to owning a 182 than to owning a Gulfstream, IMO. You don't have to be some gloriously rich guy buying advice from overpaid experts to do that.

Mike C.

Sorry, but that is clearly wrong. People are doing it every day. Actual aircraft owners with actual aircraft.

I know that doesn't fit your world model which is built on believing expensive name brand service must be worth it.

My own plane shows that isn't true. I have fixed numerous things missed at Textron service centers and done it for WAY less than they would charge.


The overhead at Textron service centers is very high.

The collateral costs are extremely high. You are forced to use Textron supplied parts.

Hydraulic pump: $34K to install new kind with adaptation. I paid $1800 to install used one of same type.

ACM: ~$65K to exchange my seized unit (maybe higher, core charge was $50K alone). I paid $13K to have my unit overhauled and installed. Textron uses the same overhaul vendor I did!

There is over $80K in savings on just two items!

If someone isn't saving 50% over a Textron service center, they aren't even trying.

Mike C.

He should have bought a jet ski.

Mike C.

Because they day before that accident, they were trouble-free. Also, I haven't found the database of "accidents that shops did but covered up" anywhere online. Let me know if you have a secret copy. Even the recent spar drilling thread doesn't name the shop.

In other words, sh*t happens. How it gets dealt with depends on where the sh*t happens.

I've been managing aircraft for over 10 years, currently 8 citations over a combined 35+ aircraft years. I haven't worked with Legacy citations, and I agree there are more options with them than larger biz jets, but you are also more limited than if you had a piston aircraft, or even some turboprops.

We use Weststar ALN for 85% of our maintenance, with the others being Eagle Creek, Burlington, Duncan, and Textron. The "in the door" prices for the CJ series have been nearly identical with only the local rates being the differentiating factor. Aside for a handful of recent squawks at one of the above facilities, I have NEVER had a dispute with an airworthy finding from any of the above, the difference of course is how long they take to rectify it and their hourly rate for doing so.

I agree the overhead at the factory can be outrageous, especially regarding parts. Weststar has a standing order to avoid Textron parts at all costs unless no other option exists for our managed fleet. The factory and big service centers also have the resources to get you turned around in 1-2 weeks for most inspections.

That said, the hourly costs of what it takes to inspect these planes per the maintenance manual is pretty uniform. We just had a prebuy done in England, the scope, and cost were identical to any shop in the US, as it should be.

I suppose it's theoretically possible to maintain a Citation (legacy) for 50% the "average" with heavy owner involvement, sourcing used parts, and a cooperating mechanic/facility. The last part being key.

We use local shops for the smaller work such as fire extinguisher weighing/oxygen/nitrogen/ELT/Batteries/oxygen masks etc and can knock off a solid 10-20% of annual costs.

I will own a Mustang or 525 series some day, however West Star will still do the majority of my work. We have a great relationship and I trust they give the plane a thorough inspection which is what I need and return it in a timely manner.

-The Citation Jet Exchange

Does paying more reduce the sh*t? Not clear to me that is so, and even if it is, was the price of sh*t reduction worth it?

Textron pay scale for A&P is $16 to $35 an hour according to this website:

https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Em ... ourly_Rate

I believe they have a fair amount of turnover, mechanics jumping to the airlines just like pilots do. Those pay rates are consistent with that. Junior people mean junior mistakes.

Anybody who wants the real story needs to join Citation Jet Pilots. There you will find everybody from the service center guys to people like me. The one clear message is that there are CHOICES and you can decide to operate over a spectrum of costs and features. Another clear point is that small independent shops can be VERY good and cost effective.

Mike C.

The $35 per hour is likely accurate, I might even have believed $25 - $35 was credible.

But, when the range starts at $16 an hour, I know it's bullcrap. There is no such thing as an A&P making $16 an hour.

This is the problem with knowledge based on research instead of experience, all you have to do is ask a Textron mechanic how much they make. I can make one call and get an accurate answer to the question.

West Star is a high reputation, moderate cost shop. It is kind of getting the big shop experience for less than the service center. They are more pliable when it comes to sourcing parts than the service center, which helps.

That being said, a good local shop will be cheaper. Quality can be higher or lower depending, so you do want to find the right local shop.

I looked seriously at West Star KALN since it is not too far from me. The quotes I got back for various jobs seemed high to me. Since I can get service on my home field, that advantage is huge. I may revisit West Star if I need something special, but so far, that hasn't come up.

The key piece of equipment that a shop needs to do regular maintenance on a legacy Citation is a Skydrol mule. If your shop doesn't have that, not a good choice. The big shop at KEVV didn't have it. The little tiny shop at KEHR did. They do about two dozen 500 and 525 series airplanes, so the little shop has a jet in it fairly often. People fly their jets to them for work, those are not just home base airplanes. That's another indicator of good service.


Those are upper tier shops, so not surprising they come in with similar costs.

Mike C.

That's why I trust people who spend their own money on Citations to tell me about how to service them.

Mike C.

You might be surprised.

Textron listing for an MSU A&P:

https://textron.taleo.net/careersection ... job=309293

EDUCATION/ EXPERIENCE:

High school education or equivalent required
A&P license required
Minimum of 3 years’ experience with diversified jet, turboprop, piston, modification, and phase inspection experience as an A&P Mechanic
Preferred - Minimum 1-2 years’ experience on Cessna, Hawker, or Beechcraft aircraft.

QUALIFICATIONS:

Use of arithmetic, blueprints, and specifications plus knowledge of jet a piston airframe and engine principals
Must possess a valid state-issued driver’s license and abide by Textron Fleet Vehicle handbook and AOA access requirements.
Must have comprehensive knowledge of aircraft mechanical systems.
Must be able to obtain an Airport Security Badge through the local airport authority (if applicable)

In compliance with the local pay transparency law, the pay range for this position is 35,360.00 - 39,520.00

That's $17 to $19 per hour.

For an MSU mechanic. With an A&P license. With 3 years experience. At Textron. In New York.

Given that, an entry level position with no experience could be $16 an hour. The data I presented does seem pretty much on target.

This job was posted 1 week ago, not a stale listing.

It would not surprise me if my local shop is paying more than Textron.

Mike C.

When I got quotes for my Phase 5 they ranged from $18K to $90K thats just for inspection, Not covering any issues found.

I got 5 quotes and ended up going with the shop that was at $22K and had the most experience with make and model.

No way the shop that was charging $90K was going to do that much better job than the rest of the shops. My guess is if I took it to the high end shop the final bill would be over $150K LOL

My final bill was mid $30's

So Not all shops are the same.

I am pricing out my Phase 1-4 right now as its due in June. I know not to waste my time with some of the higher end shops.

For the record I used West Star in Grand junction for some work and they were very reasonable. for sure getting quotes from them.

For other inspections between the major ones i have a guy thats charging $40hr and local. He has already done some inspections for way less than if I went to a major shop. Many small inspections I have done with different shops and the range has been nuts.

Edit- for those that don't know Phase 5 is every two years and so is Phase 1-4. Then there are some smaller inspections every 6 moths or so. Those are easy to do and don't really take the plane down. But Phase 1-4 and 5 will take longer in the shop. So it works out that each year you have an inspection that puts it in the shop but still less than an annual on other planes I have had.


Mike

How do you avoid the shop that you said you'd avoid (two accidents on one plane) when there's no way to know which shop that is?

You ask other owners on forums like this one and CJP.

A shop which has chronic issues with mistakes, bad work, excessive costs will be found out.

Similarly, the shops that do exceptional work or go above and beyond get mentioned as well.

The good small shops do not advertise, they get all the business they can handle by word of mouth.

Mike C.