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 Post subject: Re: Need Advice on PA-32 and PA-32R.
PostPosted: 25 Nov 2014, 21:21 
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Company: Take Flight Avaition.
Location: Franklin, TN
Aircraft: Piper PA46 Jet Prop
Username Protected wrote:
It says that engine failures are the most common cause of accidents, which is highly unusual. This airplane does not like to sit idle and allow its owners to kill it. It makes frequent preemptive strikes.


Ryan we got it. You love Bonanzas and every other 6 is horrible. You are misrepresenting the article as a whole and even the part you are trying to quote.


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 Post subject: Re: Need Advice on PA-32 and PA-32R.
PostPosted: 25 Nov 2014, 21:25 
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Aircraft: Piper PA46 Jet Prop
Read for yourself here is the article talking about the accidents, and the post below is the first part of article that talks about the aircraft.


Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.


Last edited on 25 Nov 2014, 21:34, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Need Advice on PA-32 and PA-32R.
PostPosted: 25 Nov 2014, 21:33 
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Company: Take Flight Avaition.
Location: Franklin, TN
Aircraft: Piper PA46 Jet Prop
All airplanes are compromises. Since most of us lack an unlimited budget, we’re often forced to choose between going fast in a relatively small cockpit or dragging around a larger cabin more slowly. It’s simple, really: The “go-fast” airplane will get us to our destination sooner, but we might be forced to leave behind a few things, or a few people. The slower, large-cabin bird gets us there just fine, thank you, and lets us carry all the stuff we’ll need upon arrival.


In the six-seat, retractable piston-single market, there are three basic choices: Beech’s Model 36 Bonanza, Cessna’s Model 210 Centurion or Piper’s PA-32R series, the Lance and Saratoga. The Bonanza arguably handles better than the other two while probably squeezing out a knot or two over the Centurion. The 210, on the other hand, generally has better short-field performance than the Bonanza and offers an improved hand-flown IFR platform. Piper’s Lance/Saratoga series, however, can carry more than the other two, albeit more slowly, and usually is thought of as the most stable of the three when flying IFR.

All three of these airplanes are growth versions of earlier, smaller airframes. All three are available in turbocharged models, either from the factory or in the aftermarket. In some cases, you have fixed-gear versions or derivatives as alternatives.

If trying to describe their differences by referring to the automotive world, the A36 Bonanza might be thought of as a BMW station wagon; the 210 as a Ford Explorer; the PA-32R as a Chevy Suburban. All three make fine platforms when there are two or three people and a few bags. But when there are a lot of bags and people, the Suburban is one that gets the job done with ease. So it is with Piper’s Lance/Saratoga.

You just might have to stop for fuel a bit more often.


An early-80s Cherokee Six panel (upper) is what you’ll get in factory-installed avionics from a similar-era airplane. But the acres of panel space makes just about any avionics upgrade possible, as seen on Richie Canastra’s 1981 Saratoga (lower).

History
In the early 1970s Piper suffered a major setback when a flood destroyed much of its Lock Haven, Penn., plant. Among the casualties was the tooling for the popular, but labor-intensive, Comanche, which had an option for small third-row seats.

The company decided to abandon the Comanche in favor of a new retractable derived from the fixed-gear PA-32 Cherokee Six. The company was already having success with the Seneca, a light twin derived from the same airframe, so it made sense to build on a familiar design. Not much needed to be done to the Cherokee Six: The PA-32 was already available with the 300 HP Lycoming IO-540, so essentially the only change was to fit a retractable landing gear. That meant a new engine mount and changes to the wing. Piper also modified the wing spar in the process, allowing a 200-pound boost in gross weight, to 3600. The new airplane was dubbed the PA-32R Lance and introduced to the public in 1976.

The powerplant was the 300HP Lycoming IO-540 K1G5D with a 2000-hour TBO in the normally aspirated airplanes and the TIO-540-S1AD with a TBO of 1800 hours in the later turbocharged models. (The first 140 Lances built had K1A5D engines, the only difference being in fuel pump design.) The D means that the engine has the infamous Bendix dual magneto system. The fuel system originally held 94 gallons in four tanks, later upped to 102 gallons.

The PA-32R borrows heavily from its siblings. The main landing gear is much like the Seneca—logical, since the basic airframe is the same—and the nose gear resembles the Seneca and also the Arrow. The PA-32R also came with Piper’s automatic extension system for the landing gear. The fuel system is similar to the Seneca’s.


The Lance remained essentially unchanged for two years. In the late 1970s, though, someone at Piper decided that T-tails were a good idea. We believe it unlikely that the responsible parties were aerospace engineers or experienced pilots, based on the aerodynamic qualities of the Piper T-tail singles in general. The Lance wasn’t the only T-tailed Piper. This also was when the PA-38 Tomahawk was rolled out and the T-tailed Arrow IV debuted.

Piper combined the T-tail’s introduction to the PA-32 airframe with a turbocharged variant. These two aircraft, the Lance II (PA-32RT-300) and Turbo Lance II (-300T), were not very well received. Though Piper ballyhooed the supposed advantages of the T-tail (smaller size and weight, reduced pitch changes with trim and flap application), the truth was that when the stabilator was moved up out of the propwash, the airplane’s handling suffered. In particular, takeoff runs increased significantly since it took a good deal of speed for the stabilator to become effective, and when it did, the result was a pronounced pitch-up. Some complained of lack of rudder authority. The T-tailed Lances were also sensitive to trim settings. The T-tail was also a pain to preflight, especially in winter, when a ladder is required to remove snow from the stabilator.

When pilots found out about these traits, sales plummeted. In 1980, two years after the T-tail’s introduction, Piper saw the light and reverted to the original tail design.


The large door for loading/unloading people and cargo is a family pleaser. The rear baggage area is directly behind the rearmost seats.

At the same time, the company applied the same wing upgrade that had already appeared in the PA-28 series. The constant-chord “Hershey Bar” wing was replaced with a semi-tapered planform. Piper also “simplified” the designation of the entire PA-32 series, renaming them Saratoga SP. The fixed-gear versions were simply called Saratogas. As before, there were turbo versions available, designated by a T at the end of the model number. The fixed-gear option was dropped in 1993, only to reappear briefly as the Piper 6X from 2004-2007. The retractable version saw various iterations under the Saratoga name until 2008.

Used values of the T-tail models have historically been lower than those of the conventional-tailed airplanes, which makes the T-tail a relative bargain in a six-place airplane. Owners of T-tails seem to like them. It should be noted that although T-tail owners without exception stand behind their airplanes and claim the poor reputation is undeserved, the airplane nevertheless has documented performance differences from the otherwise identical straight-tail version (more on this later).

Turbo Differences
The turbocharged engines have AiResearch turbos with wastegates mechanically linked to the throttle controls. The pilot has to adjust the throttle to maintain manifold pressure during climb, and it is possible to overboost the engine if too much throttle is applied. (The MP gauge is inconveniently located in front of the pilot’s right knee, but there is an overboost warning light on the panel’s eyebrow.)

The Turbo Lance II has an unusual updraft engine-cooling system that takes air in through a low-mounted “fish-mouth” oval scoop, forces it up over the cylinders, then back down and out through cowl flaps. Owners say the system is ineffective and requires the use of extra fuel and step-climbs to avoid engine meltdown. The Turbo Saratoga SP has a more effective cooling system replacing cowl flaps with louvers mounted on top and on the bottom of the cowling. A popular mod is to add an intercooler.


Club Interior
Most find the interior of the PA-32R quite comfortable. The cabin is over 10 feet long and 3.5 feet high. Shoulder room for the front and center seats is four feet and 3.5 feet for the back row. Most 32Rs have club seating and there’s a big side door for the passengers, who need not clamber over a wing to enter the airplane. It’s remarkably quiet, due in no small part to the presence of a nose baggage compartment located between the cabin and engine. The rear seats are easily removed for cargo, and some owners just leave the rear ones at home most of the time. Because of the wide cabin, there’s plenty of room on the panel for any gadget one might want. Other than that, it’s pure Piper single.

The fuel selector is a bit different from the familiar PA-28 sidewall-mounted pointer, being sensibly located on the center pedestal. One thing we don’t like is the sump-draining procedure. Not a simple matter of sticking a fuel tester in a quick drain, the procedure requires the pilot to first put a bucket under a nozzle in the belly, then get back in and hold down a lever located under the right center-row seat while simultaneously switching tanks.
This gymnastic routine continues for a minimum of 18 seconds due to the length of the fuel lines, after which the pilot gets to go back outside, look in the bucket and try to figure out which tank the water came from.


Later PA-32s have some good crashworthiness features, including seats with S-shaped frames designed to progressively crush on impact and a thickly padded glareshield.

Load Carrying
Typical of single-engine airplanes, the Lances and Saratoga SPs force the pilot to choose between filling the cabin and filling the tanks. Still, an airplane this size is quite practical when it comes to hauling, because carrying four with baggage and full fuel is possible. The turbo models are a bit more limited. With six FAA-standard people aboard, a PA-32R can carry enough fuel to fly 2.5 to 3.5 hours. The CG range is quite wide, but with only two people aboard, care must be taken to avoid exceeding the forward limit. There are two baggage compartments, both with a 100-pound capacity: the nose bay and a large one aft of the rear. One way to improve the T-tail’s squirrelly handling reputation is to put 50 pounds in the aft baggage compartment to bring the CG aft into the center of the range.

Performance Anxiety
While 150 knots isn’t all that bad, when compared to other big retractables the PA-32Rs are rather slow. Almost any A36 Bonanza or Cessna 210 will walk away from the 32R, being about 10 knots faster.

At 75 percent power, a Lance cruises at 158 knots while burning 18 GPH. The Saratoga SP isn’t faster, but improvements in induction air cooling allow their engines to be leaned to peak EGT, saving a couple of gallons an hour. The turbocharged airplanes can cruise at 177 knots while burning nearly 20 GPH up high, but at lower altitudes they’re only a couple of knots faster on the same fuel.

Because of its T-tail, the Lance II has a significantly longer ground roll than the conventional-tail models. The books indicates a 1650-foot ground roll under standard conditions, and notes the roll will be one-quarter longer if the airplane is loaded toward its forward CG limit. Ground rolls for the Lance and SP are posted as 1380 and 1200 feet, respectively. Initial rate of climb is a tad over 1000 FPM for all models.


The fuel selector is big, simple and mounted directly under the center console’s engine controls and is easily reached from either front seat.

Maintenance
Several Turbo Lance II owners complained about their hot-running engines. (One said his mill once toasted the forward baggage compartment sufficiently to melt plastic diaper bags that had been stowed there.) However, as noted below, there are modifications designed to eliminate the heat problem.

Among recurring ADs are: 77-12-06, which requires the shanks of Hartzell Y-blade propellers to be inspected and cold-rolled every 2000 hours or five years (90-2-23 also calls for a one-time inspection and possible replacement of the hub, and 94-17-13 requires recurrent inspection of hub grease fittings); 78-23-01, which requires the fuel drain lever doors in naturally aspirated Lances to be checked every 100 hours until they’re replaced; 93-5-22, which addresses the fuel injector lines on the TIO-540-S1AD engine; 95-26-13, which requires recurrent inspection of oil cooler hoses.

A rash of engine fires in turbo-charged Lances and Saratogas prompted an Airworthiness Directive requiring portions of their exhaust systems to be periodically inspected and eventually replaced. The AD targets the fittings on a 90-degree elbow between exhaust ports and turbocharger in the Lycoming TIO-540-S1AD engine powering the big Piper singles.

In 1988, NTSB issued a warning about the fittings when it concluded its investigation of a Turbo Lance that crashed during an attempted emergency landing in Lincoln, Neb. The Safety Board found the elbow fitting in the Lance had separated, allowing hot exhaust gases to flow into the engine compartment and start a fire. The board noted the gasket and flange on the fitting had been misaligned during maintenance on the exhaust system about a month before the accident occurred.

The FAA responded with an AD (89-12-4) requiring periodic inspections of the exhaust elbows and fittings, and replacement with modified components developed by Lycoming. The FAA estimated that compliance would cost $858 per engine.


The Turbo Lance “featured” this large scoop, louvers on the top and up-draft cooling in between. It wasn’t the best solution, but the after­market came up with STC’d mods to cool things down. Photo by Brian Spurr.

However, later evidence of a string of exhaust system-related accidents and incidents involving both the Turbo Lance II and the Turbo Saratoga SP prompted the NTSB to call for a more stringent AD. Four such crashes occurred in 1990 alone. The Safety Board, noting that some of the crashed aircraft had received new parts called for by the AD, declared the AD was not an effective solution and called for a revision mandating repetitive inspections whether or not new parts are installed. The revised AD, AD 91-21-01, requires new exhaust parts that would beat the cracking problem.

Landing gear problems are prominent in SDR reports, accounting for about a quarter of the total. Chief among them were broken nosegear actuators and cracked or broken nosegear trunnions. Other frequently cited problems included cracked engine mounts, exhaust system leaks and separations, broken magnetos and loose stabilator attachments.

Mods, Owner Groups
Several companies have developed means to alleviate the heat problems plaguing the Turbo Lance II; if this is the model you’re interested in, check to see if one of these kits has been installed in a candidate airplane. TurboPlus still offers intercoolers for the turbocharged Lance and Saratoga (www.turboplus.com).

Aerodynamic clean-up kits (e.g., gap seals and fairings) are available from a number of companies, including Knots 2 U (www.knots2u.com) and Laminar Flow Systems (www.laminarflowsystems.com). LoPresti (www.speedmods.com) offers gap seals, too, along with a redesigned cowling, which the company says improves engine cooling and reduces drag.

Precise Flight (www.preciseflight.com) offers speed brakes, a standby vacuum system and a pulse-light anti-collision system. Upgraded propeller systems are available from both Hartzell (www.hartzellprop.com) and McCauley (www.mccauley.textron.com) for most PA-32R models.


Piper’s Lance/Saratoga is the company’s retractable version of the do-anything Cherokee Six. Although its basic design is some 40 years old, updates like a cleaner cowling have kept it relevant in the 21st century.

About 4000 owners of PA-28 and -32 series airplanes belong to the Cherokee Pilots Association (866-697-4737 or www.piperowner.org). The group holds an annual convention and regional fly-ins, and publishes a monthly magazine focusing on maintenance and operational information.

Owner Comments
I bought my 1980 Turbo Saratoga (intercooled by Turbo Plus) in 1994. I have not regretted the choice. I have installed speed mods, cosmetic enhancements and almost every avionics update available. After eight planes and over 20 years as an owner/pilot, I’ve come to believe that you get what you pay for.

Most years my Saratoga annuals run about $5000, but have been as high as $15,000. A less fussy owner can certainly maintain a plane like this for less money. This airplane carries my granddaughter and I’m not willing to compromise anything I see as a safety issue to save money.

Every pilot wants more speed, but I’m satisfied with 185 to 190 knots at long-distance cruise altitudes in the mid-teens, where I am above most of the weather. I never have to worry about weight, balance or room. In the four years my son was a student in Washington, D.C., a 240-mile trip, we drove our Jeep Grand Cherokee exactly once. It simply could not handle the load that the Saratoga could carry, and the plane made overnight stays optional, not mandatory. Another four years of school in Philly only reinforced that view.

The Saratoga was also the only practical way for my late father to visit his older brother in Maryland. Both men, in their 80s and 90s, were too old and too physically impaired to travel either by ground or airline. The Saratoga interior volume means that almost anyone can enter, exit or ride in comfort. Almost anyone can get into or out of a Saratoga with a plastic footstool and that big-ass rear passenger door. For SCUBA or ski trips I can literally toss all the equipment I want into the back without even thinking about it. I don’t deny that I would like another 20 knots or so, but I would lose almost all the utility for the kind of flying I do.

I’ve made a lot of very long trips (1500 miles or more) and the ability to stretch out, read a book, use a laptop or have a sandwich can’t be equaled without a much bigger and more expensive plane.

I’d love to own a Meridian or a TBM, but realistically that won’t happen. For pilots whose need for speed outweighs the need for space, or don’t need to save five GPH, there are better choices. But when I balance the speed of the little airplanes against the room and practicality of the Saratoga, there’s no contest.

Brian Peck
Middlebury, Connecticut

I bought my normally aspirated, fixed-gear Saratoga in 1998 to serve the transportation needs of my young family, and almost 14 years later it is still carrying out its mission. My friends said that I didn’t need a six-place airplane, but I have had no regrets.


Gib Dow’s family (below) gladly trades some knots for more baggage space. Joe Budge’s ‘Toga (right) took that whole palette of medical supplies to Haiti. Yes, it all fit.

The Saratoga has all the utility of a minivan with wings. I cannot think of a trip where we had to leave anything at home. On one trip we loaded our family of four, two grandparents, luggage for a weekend and an outboard engine and went to Maine, still under gross. When it was first introduced, Piper boasted of the size of the Saratoga when it published sales literature showing a piano being loaded in one. Has anyone ever tried transporting a piano in a Skyhawk?

The Saratoga is a well-designed airplane that performs well in several categories. If you don’t fill the 107-gallon tanks, it really can carry six adults. If you watch your load, it really can go 800 miles non-stop at 145 knots. It is well-equipped for IFR flights, and the cockpit is comfortable and stable. Most of my trips are in the Northeast and from one to two hours long, so the lack of retractable gear and turbo-charging is not missed and the savings are appreciated. Angel Flight passengers are easy to load through the large rear door.

When newer pilots ask me for advice about the purchase of a plane, I tell them to focus on their typical mission. When it comes to my typical missions of transporting family, friends and Angel Flight patients around the Northeast United States, you can’t beat a used Saratoga.

Thomas G. Clements
Glens Falls, New York

I own a 1999 II HP based in Florida with about 2100 hours. The biggest selling points are its stability as an instrument platform and the comfortable seats up front. Minuses include climb performance at altitude, the long takeoff roll and the very limited full-fuel useful load. I limit myself to airways no higher than 12,000 feet and always ask for the longest runways at high altitude airports, even then using short-field techniques as a safety measure.

The post-1999 ‘Togas have great panels sporting HSIs and Garmins, and often come with TCAS and a Stormscope. I have added a panel-powered 396. I definitely recommend the S-Tec 55X autopilot vs. the non-“X”-model, as it saves you from constantly adjusting the tracking. Annuals run between $3000-$7000 as there are usually a couple of things that need to be replaced. The perfect progression for this plane would be via Cherokee/Archer, Arrow and then Saratoga. From there it’s a small jump to a Seneca, followed by a somewhat bigger one to a Mirage or Meridian.


Compared to a Bonanza, the Saratoga trades speed for comfort. Versus a 206, you trade speed for useful load. Compared to its predecessor, the Lance, the Saratoga gives you many creature comforts at the price of the Lance’s load utility. A problem is getting a CFI who is really intimately familiar with the plane for the initial training. It’s better with A&P mechanics and parts.

Given that the pre-glass-panel Saratogas were virtually unchanged between 1999 and 2006 save for the upgrade to a GNS530, the earlier versions represent excellent value. If I had to do it over again, I’d get a TC for my flying in California. The HP is much more economical, however, if used mostly in eastern, southern or Midwest states.

Jim Jiao
Florida

I purchased a fixed-gear 1988 Saratoga (PA32-301) seven years ago to accommodate travel for our five-place family. We selected it for a combination of speed and capacity, which is another way of saying a Bonanza wouldn’t hold our family, bags, dog, and so forth. About 600 hours later, it’s taken us from the Tropic of Cancer to Canada, from the Atlantic Coast throughout the Rockies. As a family, we’re delighted with the aircraft.

Perhaps the largest transition was getting used to the Saratoga’s nose. That long nose hides a lot of runway or taxiway. A loaded Saratoga tends to squat down on its mains, adding to the challenge. I’ve flown tailwheel aircraft with better forward visibility on the ground. A spotter in the right seat is well appreciated at unfamiliar airports.

With partial flaps to lower the nose, the airplane can fly a landing pattern at 90-95 knots. Once I became used to the plane I started crossing the fence at 1.3 Vso (79 KIAS) and began fitting into GA runways with less adventure. The aircraft’s 1000-foot sea-level takeoff ground roll is the limiting factor in short-field work.

The PA32 is famous for developing prodigious sink rates. The power-off sink rate at best glide (80 KIAS) with the blue knob forward is 1400 FPM. Pulling the prop back lowers that to 900 FPM and greatly extends glide range. A full load can make up to an eight-knot difference in liftoff speed and five-knot difference in cruise. Climb rates are quite different, and there are several thousand-foot differences in service ceiling. (A fully loaded Saratoga has a service ceiling of 13,000 feet.)

We fill the mains only (70 gallons) and fly three-hour legs with ample IFR reserves, which is about all the family wants to sit still anyway. Starting with an empty weight of 2287 pounds, that configuration allows for an 893-pound payload. It’s well worth checking empty weight when considering a PA32 purchase as there’s quite a bit of variability in the fleet.

Since purchase, the Saratoga has cost $145/hour in fuel, maintenance and repairs. That’s somewhat on the high side, as early maintenance bills included catching up with several items which previous owners had deferred, including SB1006 ($2562), which calls for removal of the fuel tanks and inspection of the spar. Insurance runs $8.68 per thousand for hull insurance (no deductible), and $0.95 per thousand for smooth liability.

The closest thing to a formal users group is the Toga Party email list (groups.yahoo.com/group/toga_party) where one can correspond with other Saratoga owners. The Piper Owner Society (www.piperowner.org), and Piper Flyer Association (www.piperflyer.org) also support the Saratoga amongst other model Pipers. The Piper Forum (www.piperforum.com) is also a helpful and active Internet community.


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 Post subject: Re: Need Advice on PA-32 and PA-32R.
PostPosted: 26 Nov 2014, 07:24 
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Username Protected wrote:
It says that engine failures are the most common cause of accidents, which is highly unusual. This airplane does not like to sit idle and allow its owners to kill it. It makes frequent preemptive strikes.


Not sure what this means....
Chris


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 Post subject: Re: Need Advice on PA-32 and PA-32R.
PostPosted: 26 Nov 2014, 08:23 
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Company: Wings Insurance
Location: Eden Prairie, MN / Scottsdale, AZ
Aircraft: 2016 Cirrus SR22 G5
We own and operate a 2007 Turbo Saratoga G1000. Fly it about 200 hrs per year and lease it to a couple of parties for another 50-75 hrs. So the airplane sees a fair amount of use throughout the year and holds up quite well. We have been pretty happy with it thus far outside of the useful load (yes useful load :). The airplane from what I was told is the first G1000 Turbo Saratoga delivered in the USA. It was a demonstrator and purchased with about 50 hrs total time on the engine/airframe.

The only negatives with our bird as I noted is the useful load - with air conditioning and TKS (not known ice but inadvertent ice) we have about 900 lbs useful load. Which means with full fuel (104g) we are at gross with one pilot and one passenger (albeit light pilot and passenger). So balancing fuel vs passenger load is obviously critical. We use it primarily for travel 500-600 NM radius but have flown it from Minneapolis to Florida, Texas, Connecticut etc. Extremely roomy for a piston single - in fact I would venture a guess that there is no 'wider' cabin cross section in this market segment (Single-Engine piston - the Cirrus might be close?). So from a comfort standpoint it can't be beaten in my mind. An overall nice big bus and comfortable for the pilots and rear seat passengers.

We can see 170-175 KTAS pushing 23-24gph through it at 34" power. If you want to dial it back to 29" of power you will see 18ish gph and roughly 160 KTAS.

Reliability has been pretty good - early AHARS issue with our airplane and one transponder issue - chalk up to avoincs and not airframe or engine issue. Annuals have been relatively painless outside of a turbo charger problem a couple of years ago (FOD on the wheel).

I would give the plane high marks overall. We have just outgrown the airplane I think and are looking at upgrade to Piper Mirage and/or SEL turbo-prop at some point in time.

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 Post subject: Re: Need Advice on PA-32 and PA-32R.
PostPosted: 26 Nov 2014, 09:01 
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A Turbo Saratoga was the first real cross country plane I experienced.

It was very comfortable and roomy, the AC worked pretty well, it was extremely stable, and the nose baggage is great.

I remember it was a bit of a war on the runway between the nose wheel and the rudder. It seemed like it had a lot of Pfactor and slowing down required you plant the nose wheel in a cross wind. Also, it needs quite a bit of trim on takeoff for similar reasons.

The turbo exhaust runs up and over the back of the motor. This deserves frequent inspection.

The Lycoming cam issue got my partner. It grabbed a lifter and tossed it overboard via a new hole in the top of the case. He was sure that exhaust pipe, now coated in oil, would catch fire. It did not....he milked enough power out of it to make an uneventful landing (staring out of the storm window). The wife did decide she liked that 421 they saw afterall.

Nobody has mentioned Piper build quality. Its not on par with Beech so expect to buy some airframe parts here and there. Of course, Cessnas have the same issue.

Lots of pluses already mentioned. Overall, I like the plane.

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 Post subject: Re: Need Advice on PA-32 and PA-32R.
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2014, 11:03 
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Cliff,

I actually like the Saratoga. I do not know why you think I hate it. We just had one gear up at our airport (gear switch in up position). They are built strong. The stoutness of the airframe is great. The roominess is even better. However the cowling design was horrible on the early versions of the turbo.

You need to look at the accident scan that is linked to the Aviation Consumer article. It is the only airplane I know of that the number one cause of accidents is engine failures. If this does not at least get your attention, you may enjoy piloting shaking gliders.

The normally aspirated Saratoga is likely the best choice for people over 6 feet and 200 pounds. Certainly much roomier than a bonanza.

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Ryan Holt CFI

"Paranoia and PTSD are requirements not diseases"


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 Post subject: Re: Need Advice on PA-32 and PA-32R.
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2014, 11:13 
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Cliff,

And no my airplane gets the same scrutiny. I want a TN, and an aerostar, and a B55 , and a 180 and..........

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Ryan Holt CFI

"Paranoia and PTSD are requirements not diseases"


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 Post subject: Re: Need Advice on PA-32 and PA-32R.
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2014, 11:17 
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Chris,

Usually pilots kill airplanes, not vice-versa. The turbo Toga ain't got no love for pilots or so it seems.

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Ryan Holt CFI

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 Post subject: Re: Need Advice on PA-32 and PA-32R.
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2014, 11:33 
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Most of the turbo Toga engine problems are MX screw-ups. If you look at the engine *correctly every year you will likely have no problem. I have seen a bunch of Togas and Turbo Lance airplanes with bulging exhaust systems that are 30 years old and signed off annuals. Keep the exhaust in good shape and your are fine.

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 Post subject: Re: Need Advice on PA-32 and PA-32R.
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2014, 11:37 
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Joined: 09/04/08
Posts: 217
Post Likes: +25
Location: KBOW KDSV
Aircraft: BE58 G36 90 200 LR31
Username Protected wrote:
A Turbo Saratoga was the first real cross country plane I experienced.

It was very comfortable and roomy, the AC worked pretty well, it was extremely stable, and the nose baggage is great.

I remember it was a bit of a war on the runway between the nose wheel and the rudder. It seemed like it had a lot of Pfactor and slowing down required you plant the nose wheel in a cross wind. Also, it needs quite a bit of trim on takeoff for similar reasons.

The turbo exhaust runs up and over the back of the motor. This deserves frequent inspection.

The Lycoming cam issue got my partner. It grabbed a lifter and tossed it overboard via a new hole in the top of the case. He was sure that exhaust pipe, now coated in oil, would catch fire. It did not....he milked enough power out of it to make an uneventful landing (staring out of the storm window). The wife did decide she liked that 421 they saw afterall.

Nobody has mentioned Piper build quality. Its not on par with Beech so expect to buy some airframe parts here and there. Of course, Cessnas have the same issue.

Lots of pluses already mentioned. Overall, I like the plane.


Jesse,

Based upon my experience with all versions of PA32s, the "" war on the runway between the nose wheel and the rudder"" you describe, is often a result of the spring loaded nose wheel steering arms being out of alignment with the rudder. This is easily remedied by adjusting the rod ends on each steering arm in the appropriate direction. Have done this a few times. If the left and right steering arms are removed during an engine change or nose gear repair and not reinstalled in the same positions as removed, the nose wheel and rudder will likely be out of alignment.

Don


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 Post subject: Re: Need Advice on PA-32 and PA-32R.
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2014, 12:00 
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Joined: 10/04/14
Posts: 493
Post Likes: +113
Company: Take Flight Avaition.
Location: Franklin, TN
Aircraft: Piper PA46 Jet Prop
Username Protected wrote:

Go to bottom and read link to safety history. Anyone wanna give me their POS 'Toga?

.



Ryan this is the reason I am a bit annoyed at you. Dont make comments like "Anyone wanna give me their POS 'Toga?" Then come back with "I actually like the Saratoga. I do not know why you think I hate it. " You are right, it said the Saratoga had more engine related nearly double issues then runway loss of control, then it went on to say that most of these were human error. That is why I took issue to what you said.

PS. Happy Thanksgiving Ryan and everyone else and safe flying.


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 Post subject: Re: Need Advice on PA-32 and PA-32R.
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2014, 14:25 
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Joined: 08/01/11
Posts: 6901
Post Likes: +6167
Location: In between the opioid and marijuana epidemics
Aircraft: 182, A36TC
Cliff,

Sarcasm mi amigo. If you do not like your toga. I will fly it was the point.

_________________
Fly High,

Ryan Holt CFI

"Paranoia and PTSD are requirements not diseases"


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 Post subject: Re: Need Advice on PA-32 and PA-32R.
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2014, 15:16 
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Joined: 08/01/11
Posts: 6901
Post Likes: +6167
Location: In between the opioid and marijuana epidemics
Aircraft: 182, A36TC
Anyone want to guess which airplane, granted arguably, has the worst record for landing accidents? It is not the 'Toga. You will not believe the answer.

Danger thread drift.

_________________
Fly High,

Ryan Holt CFI

"Paranoia and PTSD are requirements not diseases"


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 Post subject: Re: Need Advice on PA-32 and PA-32R.
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2014, 16:12 
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Joined: 10/05/09
Posts: 1170
Post Likes: +449
Location: Charleston, SC (KJZI)
Aircraft: Phenom 300, Bell 505
Flew a T-Tail Turbo Lance PA32R-300T for many years. The whole T-Tail thing is a bunch of BS. Yes, it handles differently then the straight tail; but no big deal. I absolutely loved having the T-Tail in my T-Hangar; plenty of space behind the plane!

I put roughly 800-1000 hours on my Lance and did not have any major maintenance problems with the Turbo, Engine or Gear. The only issue I had with the plane was corrosion on the inside of the belly skin.

As for the Turbo, that I really didn't get much use out of given we live at sea level. My family did not want to where O2 so we didn't get much use out of the higher altitudes. I'd typically fly at 10-13K but it was very capable of going into the high-teens.


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