BeechTalk - BT

Username Protected · **Posted:** 20 Oct 2012, 11:04

Here's a quick comparison sheet on the smaller jets. Personally I'm looking at turbo-props due to runway length issues and more likely single engine TP's due to Transport Canada / airport fee issues.

Attachment:

LightJetscomparison_FJ44-2A.pdf

Username Protected · **Posted:** 20 Oct 2012, 11:14

The hop in and go factor is going to be gone, long gone. This is stepping up to the plate in the big leagues. I will look forward to tracking this journey.

If I had the cash I know I would try it too, at least for awhile.

Honestly, I thought your PC 12 was a viable way to go.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 20 Oct 2012, 12:29

Username Protected · **Posted:** 20 Oct 2012, 12:35

I've flown the CJ1 and currently fly the CJ3 single pilot, they are simple airplanes to fly and both cost the same to operate. The fuel burn per mile on a CJ3 will be the same or less than the CJ1 because the 3 will climb straight to FL450 and do over 400kts at 110gph fuel flow while the 1 is stuck down at a lower altitude burning almost as much and only doing 360kts. TAP and proparts is $475 per hour on the CJ3. Phenom 300 is nice but is way more money, I'd look at a used CJ3 if I were in the market for a light jet.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 20 Oct 2012, 12:36

Unbelievable numbers Clay - love it.

We have owner-pilots insured in all kinds of big jets including Phenom 300s, CJ3s and even large Falcons. Personally I'm a sucker for the look and idea of a Mustang but the CJ3 or Phenom 300 are the quintessential "buy your last plane first" for jet drivers.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 20 Oct 2012, 12:54

Jason,

Not to throw water on a fire or anything, but what happened to the PC12? Seemed the perfect machine for a baller like you.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 20 Oct 2012, 13:02

Everyone loves pictures right?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 20 Oct 2012, 13:02

Username Protected wrote:

Jason,

It is not as fun as it might seem. Flying a jet requires a ton more time outside of the cockpit. More time in school, more time managing the airplane, more time planning trips. Some of this time is fun but a lot of it is just plain work. Preflights & checklists are probably 4X the number of items and you'll do a lot more "procedures" in the cockpit as well.

When I had the V Tail, I had all kinds of pilot approaching me to say hi and chat about my airplane. It was so cool to hear their stories and things they knew about a V35TC. Now that I have a P baron, nobody talks to me anymore.... The P is not really a "fly for fun" airplane and most of the people who have similar airplanes bought them to save time rather than for the "airport experience" - so in other words, the people who can relate to a P don't really hang out at the airport like piston single guys do (or at least they are far less common). I miss that part about the V Tail.

Having two pilots up front is pretty nice and I'd be surprised if you really want to be alone up there after you go through training and IOE. Workload in a jet can get very busy and I'm sure you could train to the point where you can handle it but you may decide you don't want to work that hard. It is so nice to get up, go pee or grab a cup-a-joe or just check on the passengers - pretty hard to do that with just one pilot...

John,

I might throw an opposing point of view.....

If we are flying the same routing, and the same weather the jet really does not require anymore effort than a pressurized piston twin, and probably a lot less. Sure, we do have to think in terms of a faster speed and things happen faster... but not necessarily in the approach and departure more... for the most part.

Checklists can be different, but really not that much. Systems are not much different... both have pressurization, inverters, ice systems, AC, brakes, etc., etc. Now, as one gets to bigger jets, you get APUs, galleys, and perhaps a few other things, but not hard to deal with. And training is a bit longer, depending on qualifications.

Now, don't get me wrong.....I'm a strong proponent of a 2 pilot crew and would prefer that. I just don't believe single pilot is that much harder because of the specific airplane. And jets are much simpler .... push and you go, pull and you stop. No props, mixtures etc. And plenty of performance.

And, yes, one could get their CJ out and flying about as fast as one could launch is Baron or C421 .... or turboprop for that matter.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 20 Oct 2012, 13:04

Jason

I totally agree wanting to fly single pilot. However, no how no way any insurance company would allow this for quite some time. Many hours of dual is going to be required. Especially for a relatively low time piston pilot. Seems like an awful big jump.

Good luck
Rick

Username Protected · **Posted:** 20 Oct 2012, 13:07

Username Protected wrote:

There is absolutely, positively no way any of you will talk me into 2 pilots. I fly to deserted islands, get naked and run down the beach. Now if the 2nd pilot is blonde, 6ft. tall, skinny with big boobs I'm on board. But a 50 year old, fat bald guy named Bob ain't gonna cut it. I don't want to take care of Bob or fly Bob back home etc. That to me is more work than anything. Managing other peoples schedules is the biggest chore I can think of. Forget it! Airplanes are about freedom. I want to land and roll.

Of course the Phenom 300 is better than the 100. It's 3 times the money too.

Jason,

What, you don't want to run naked with fat bald Bob? I think he would like you.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 20 Oct 2012, 14:02

can someone tell me exactly what is so much more difficult about flying a pressurized plane?
Sure it's one more system but it's a pretty simple system to operate.
I guess it's one more thing to remember to set for your descent but as part of a pro trick I learned you set your DH before you begin your descent...
What else makes it hard?
Donning the mask? In an emergency?
:shrug:

If I had the means, and I needed a get there airplane it would be a small blip on the decision tree....
Of course if I had the means instead of buying one go fast get there plane I'd buy six planes....
But from my experience I'd strongly consider a turbo commander... With the dash10s ..... It gets up and goes yet is still an awesomely fund to fly pilots airplane.... And they can be had cheap.
Fl 280 iAs 175 tas 280 burning 280# s a side. Not a bad combo...

Username Protected · **Posted:** 20 Oct 2012, 14:09

"If we are flying the same routing, and the same weather the jet really does not require anymore effort than a pressurized piston twin, and probably a lot less. Sure, we do have to think in terms of a faster speed and things happen faster... but not necessarily in the approach and departure more... for the most part."

+1 what Larry said. I've spent more years than I like to admit flying in the 3 major professional aviation segments (military/airline/corporate)

Single pilot jet flying requires proficiency and thinking ahead. But, in general, I'd rather fly a jet into 200 & 1/2 in blowing bat guano than a piston twin with all them extra levers and handles to worry about. As for emergency procedures, a V1 engine failure in a CJ is a non-event compared to the same thing in a loaded B55.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 20 Oct 2012, 14:24

Clay; excellent presentation for us on the "drool" list. :drool:

Flying for business I would prefer a second pilot so I am rested on arrival. Now I agree totally with Jason in that I don't want "Bob" and I already have the other. She will just have to get her PPL. period. (and of course a few more ratings

)

Username Protected · **Posted:** 20 Oct 2012, 14:48

I'm with you guys when you say a pressurized piston twin is a lot of work - I know there are scenarios in the P that would overload me. I can think of of number of flights I've done over the past year where I would have preferred 2 pilots.

I'm sure the workload in a newer jet could be potentially be less than the P at times. But, I flew a PC12 for the first time yesterday and it was still a lot more airplane than a 36 Bo and a lot more flows than the P baron - heck, just learning the ins & outs of the stick pusher system in icing mode was a lot to remember.

We are all biased towards our own way of working our way into aviation. In my case, I think there was a ton a value in working my way up - when the crap hits the fan, often times I am comforted knowing I've dealt with similar situations in other airplanes. Jumping from an A36 to a jet with the idea of flying single pilot ASAP is not the safest route. Flying for a year or two with an experienced pilot (Bald Bob or Big Boob Barb - your choice) would be a lot smarter way to move to a jet.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 20 Oct 2012, 16:15

Username Protected wrote:

:scratch: can someone tell me exactly what is so much more difficult about flying a pressurized plane?
...

Now that I have about about 100 hours in my Aerostar, I don't think that flying a pressurized plane any more difficult. I am much less tired after flying the Aerostar... HOWEVER, my Mooney does not have an autopilot.

In my opinion, the difficulty lies in that a more capable aircraft translates into more choices/decisions. There are simply more opportunities to get yourself into trouble. A go/no-go decision for a few of the trips I have made in the Aerostar would have been easier in the Mooney (i.e. I would have only had one choice...stay on the ground).

Another issue is that a lot of piston twins are marginal on one engine. Pressurization is heavier so a many of the pressurized piston twins are even more challenged in that area.

...so IMHO its not really the pressurization that's the issue, more likely its the class of airplane that they fall into.

Glenn

CJ1 vs. CJ3 vs. Phenom