Wait...what?

Wait...what?

Wait...what?

The RVSM card actually has the static source correction table in it. In the case of the 441 this was developed by West Star, and not Garmin (although I am sure Garmin had to approve it).

They put some equipment on a 441 and fly it a few times and make the table. The pilot who did it is still at West Star, he didn't say explicitly but sounded like it was just something he fit in between customer/maintenance flights on someone else's airplane. It's nothing magical and they probably made their money back the first few they sold. It costs $20,000 because people will pay it. They also charge $20,000 for their GFC600 STC.

RVSM is not the black magic it used to be. ADS-B data is monitored and it is very easy to tell if one airplane is flying 200 ft above or below everyone else by comparing GSL. On our traffic display I always see +10 or -20 at cruise for other airplanes (second number is always zero unless climbing/descending) This is the primary reason they changed old RVSM approval process.

In our case we'd been flying for a year without this correction data and our altitude was just as accurate.

Believe it or not, unlock cards make software cheaper.

I developed software in my previous life. At my last company we had different versions of software for each client, depending on what they needed and paid for. It was B2B software and you could buy a nice Bonanza for the price of a typical installation. Even though we only had a few hundred clients, it was a NIGHTMARE releasing fixes and updates. Getting the right versions synched cost my team a few extra man-weeks of time for each new release.

The owner of the company wanted each client to get an upgrade because - well, see Chip's statement. He wanted our customers to think they "got something" when they paid for features.

It absolutely made our software more expensive and introduced bugs we wouldn't have had otherwise. I really wanted to shift to "feature keys" as I called them but I was prohibited from doing it by marketing decisions.

The unlock may be painful to pay for, but it's good for you.

Did some shop really falsify the gear overhaul work as you claimed?

If I was discussing this with the shop and I thought they falsified the work, I'd be indicating this issue will reach the FSDO and that the shop had better be more cooperative.

Mike C.

Did some shop really falsify the gear overhaul work as you claimed?

If I was discussing this with the shop and I thought they falsified the work, I'd be indicating this issue will reach the FSDO and that the shop had better be more cooperative.

Mike C.

A prebuy is generally in both party's best interest but there's a right and wrong way to do it:

1) Wrong Way: a contractual obligation to fix "airworthy" issues. Your plane is held hostage and your financial responsibility is infinity. Never do this.

2) Good Way: give me your list and let's talk about it. We can give discounts or fix your list.

3) Best Way: Give someone a good deal on the plane and make their prebuy binary. Price is the price, buy it or not. You have a great deal already; don't expect a brand new airplane. If you want a brand new airplane, order one.

We usually do a combination of 2 and 3. It's fair to everyone. I genuinely want to sell someone a squawk free airplane that will make someone happy and make me a lifetime friend.

There's nothing worse than getting a call and having someone mad at you so I'm A OK with a reasonable prebuy. What annoys me is someone that's already getting a great deal and then they expect a brand new airplane; that's not realistic.

Mike

I don't do a "pre-buy" in the sense that I have it dropped it off at a shop and tell them to do a pre-buy and e-mail me the results. I first remotely comb through the logbooks before I even talk to an IA or travel to see it in-person. If that looks good then I hire a competent IA for a minimum of five hours of their time, but up to ___ hours if needed (depending on the airplane) and I am there in person.

I will give them a list of what I want them to look at, and I'll ask them what else "we" should be looking for. It's understood that I want to look for show-stoppers first, and if we find one we stop and I pay the minimum five hours. The incentive is to get to those right away. I am present and available during this, but not breathing down their neck or bothering them. I guess you could call it a buyer-directed pre-buy evaluation.

Yet the ESP is included with the GFC600 by default.....it is a silly decision to make on their part, making the airplane safer will preserve them a customer, who will continue to buy their products

Imagine if Volvo required you to insert a quarter to get your airbag to enable each time you put your key in it....silly logic

Believe it or not, unlock cards make software cheaper.

I developed software in my previous life. At my last company we had different versions of software for each client, depending on what they needed and paid for. It was B2B software and you could buy a nice Bonanza for the price of a typical installation. Even though we only had a few hundred clients, it was a NIGHTMARE releasing fixes and updates. Getting the right versions synched cost my team a few extra man-weeks of time for each new release.

The owner of the company wanted each client to get an upgrade because - well, see Chip's statement. He wanted our customers to think they "got something" when they paid for features.

It absolutely made our software more expensive and introduced bugs we wouldn't have had otherwise. I really wanted to shift to "feature keys" as I called them but I was prohibited from doing it by marketing decisions.

The unlock may be painful to pay for, but it's good for you.

Yet the ESP is included with the GFC600 by default.....it is a silly decision to make on their part, making the airplane safer will preserve them a customer, who will continue to buy their products

Imagine if Volvo required you to insert a quarter to get your airbag to enable each time you put your key in it....silly logic

2 and 3 are basically the same. If the squawks are minimal, then there's no adjustments, deal done. If the squawks are serious, then the seller knows they have to move or the buyer walks, and the next buyer is going to know or find the same things. The seller should have the opportunity to fix the squawks, too, but that rarely happens.

As a seller, the thing that really concerns me is a buyer who arranges a prebuy, gets the plane apart, finds some relatively minor issue or just gets cold feet, and walks away without paying the shop. Guess who ends up paying on that one?

What I do is insist on a NON refundable deposit that covers my costs to transport the airplane to the prebuy, my time involved, and enough funds to cover paying for the plane to be put back together if the buyer disappears. I also insist the shop owner understands they are to be paid by the buyer and won't let the wrenches start turning until the buyer agrees to that.

I have no issue with the prebuy itself. If someone wanted to buy my Citation now, they get a debugged working airplane which is not the case when I bought it. If something serious is found in the prebuy, that's fantastic, I can now fix it before it causes me further problems.

I won't fix cosmetic issues. The standard is airworthy. I ask the mechanic "would this pass inspection?". If they say yes, then it isn't an adjustment. If the buyer walks, he walks and I am made whole by retaining the deposit. The deposit turns away the non serious buyer.

I once paid for a prebuy on a Piper Comanche. They flew the plane to my shop, and significant metal was found in the oil filter. Not flakes, but real pieces of metal, like parts of a bearing race. I paid my shop and told the seller no deal and showed the oil filter results to the seller. The seller asked the mechanic to put the plane back together (we hadn't gone far) and they took off and flew home 500 miles in IMC. I couldn't believe it and was happy they made it home.

Mike C.

I think that sums it up. Many times I have seen people do a “prebuy” thinking they are getting a squawk free airplane. Not. Then they find a squawk or a nit and get mad because “they just did a prebuy”. Usually there is no recourse against the shop, so they look to the seller.

My buddy got a good deal on a V35 a couple years ago. But the list of squawks continues in the quest to make it perfect. Stuff that is labor intensive to fix, but makes it nicer. Like making the door perfect and fixing all the slop in gear doors/cowl flap rod pass through, etc…. In his scenario, he got a “good deal” so the squawks are acceptable.

Most of these airplanes are fairly old, and will have a lot of wear. Usually you can tell where you are headed by being 5’ from the plane and talking to the seller. You will ferret out quickly their stance on MX; whether they are the “fix every nit” person, or just fix what their mechanic says. Then make your buy/no-buy decision on price.

This is why I'll reach out to Tarver if we decide on a legacy Citation, instaed of a SETP!