Chip,

For me, it's just stating the obvious! Cost delta is total dependent on trip length. Short haul trips (Dallas to Houston, ect) are easy & cheap in a turboprop....not so much the V. Now, go from Dallas to Boston and we have a totally different set of numbers.

High altitude, long range cruise....going non-stop, WINS every time in the V.

Trip length matters in arriving at the correct answer.

It sounds like they are focusing on aircraft produced after Reagan was president

Answering the Dry lease questions.

I charge $1800 an hour for dry lease with a 40 hour per year minimum.

The dry lease guys have their own pilots that I have also
Checked out and feel good with. They pay for the pilots training.

Insurance charges $1500 for each dry lease. I can have up to 3.

Then of course there is the FAA paper work to register the dry lease and we have to have a binder with docs in the plane.

With the one guy buying half I no longer need to dry lease to help cover the cost. But if I ever need to add another one I can. Actually a lot of guys looking for a 50 ish hour a year dry lease in a jet.

For sure it’s more work for me to manage but it’s worth to be able to fly a jet.

Mike

Are we excluding legacy citations produced prior to 1988? If this website focused on the 90s and newer it would have about 10 posts on it.

This might begin to be useful if you plugged (all the) actual numbers into excel. This inexhaustive and inexact stream of consciousness is not actionable to anyone.

Clear calculations with well-explained assumptions from someone with the ability to do the former and the experience to know the latter are the necessary medicine. You claim to have this medicine, so it's confusing to everyone that your signal to noise ratio is so deafeningly low.

I'm sitting here shaking my head that you would start this thread without having done any of the necessary work to make good on any of your informational promises in the OP. I simply do not understand what is happening here.

-J

This might begin to be useful if you plugged (all the) actual numbers into excel. This inexhaustive and inexact stream of consciousness is not actionable to anyone.

Clear calculations with well-explained assumptions from someone with the ability to do the former and the experience to know the latter are the necessary medicine. You claim to have this medicine, so it's confusing to everyone that your signal to noise ratio is so deafeningly low.

I'm sitting here shaking my head that you would start this thread without having done any of the necessary work to make good on any of your informational promises in the OP. I simply do not understand what is happening here.

-J

But seriously, all of this stuff is subjective. We use Aircraft Cost Calculator as a base and then adjust for real world numbers, hours per year, actual fuel cost, etc. and provide nice professional reports, for our purposes here I’m just demonstrating that it is possible.

I will share more detail, just don’t have the bandwidth right now, it’s 4th quarter, we’re slammed and I have a granddaughter making an entrance this weekend!

Hopefully you saved your receipt and can seek a refund. Sorry you feel cheated.

well, then I'll pile on.

we might as well do the low-end comparison for the owner who, for example, may be in a partnership on a SETP like a TBM, but is considering making the leap to legacy citation.

even at the measly 345KTS, I still think i'd be better in the jet than the TBM. and the fuel i could buy with the leftover capital. (i'm pretty sure it still burns less than the L39).

I feel like I'm in an episode of the twilight zone where the word "demonstrate" has been redefined.

-J

DUDE! I just started the thread yesterday! Cool your jets.

You wouldn't believe how many boring conference calls I end up on, listening to attorneys talk or whatever. I can multitask, keep up with the convo and play on Beechtalk. What I can't do is set down and type up the details of a comparison, even though it won't take long, I still have to be able to focus to do it... and I'm not going to ignore my phone just to get it done.

I don't make my schedule, my clients make it for me, some days are more taxing than others and the last couple have gotten crazy.

The whole purpose of this thread is to talk about fair comparisons and what that looks like, not give detailed op cost, there's another thread that is doing a great job of that. Also, I have to use safe numbers and set reasonable expectations of what a normal operator pays under normal circumstances. Some will say it's too high and invariably some will say it's too low. But, it will be apples to apples.

BTW- I'm going to give an hourly that shows maintenance, engines, fuel burn for a Citation and a King Air... that's it, I don't want to build this into being something it isn't.

That's all obvious and readily available. The trick is adding up all the other factors.

That's all obvious and readily available. The trick is adding up all the other factors.

I think the 1989+ removes the only group of turboprops that might dissuade from this argument. Any of the TPE331-10 twins would probably be the outlier (in the positive sense), but I dont believe any were produced after 1989. . .

Not trying to poke holes in it - but I do think in a cost to own/operate argument - that that might be one that would win this argument.

500/501/550/560 Facts based on having owned 80+ of these and written every single check with my own hand, parted out 15+, rebuilt 50+ engines and done countless Phase 1-5s.

Engines:
-A midtime used 1A or -4 with a fresh hot is 200-250K to buy now, usually exchange
-A midtime used -5A is $350K exchange
-A freshly hotted timed out on condition motor is $150-175K with good blades
-No one is overhauling anymore but it's $300-450k to overhaul at an ITI/Hale sort of shop.
-Impeller is $60K to replace
-A disk of on condition blades is $75-100K
-An overhauled HT stator is $20-30K outright
-You can regrow short blades for $497 each (71 blades)
-It's 20K to remove and redisk a high turbine disk.
-It's about $2000 a piece to weld a small exit duct, large exit duct and combustion liner
-It's 10-17K to weld a cracked up high turbine stator
-A clean hot section is about $25K now, a really dirty one needing blades could be $150K. Absolutely no difference in quality between a Standard Aero and a quality independent shop, just the price.
-Ignitor box, $2500-5000
-A new to you front fan is $10K

Airframe:
-Replacing a front or side windshield costs $7500 for the part and about 25-35 hrs each
-Replacing a back window is $900 and takes about 5 hours each after interior removal
-An air cycle machine costs about 12K used and is 15-17 to overhaul
-Air cycle machine turbo is about 5K and is usually the failure
-Freon system pretty easy to repair, usually a motor or compressor running 2-5K
-Pressurization controller 5K
-Engine gauge, $2,500
-Never see corrosion issues
-Actuators costs about 2-5K
-A Phase 1-4 takes two men about a week to do properly
-A Phase 5 takes two men about 10 days to do properly
-Paint is about 45K
-An interior is 60-80K
-A Phase 49 is about $1000
-oxygen hydro $100
-Nitrogen hydro $175
-Fire bottles with new squibs about $800
-New nitrogen bottle, $7500
-New oxygen bottle, $2500
-Brakes, $1750 a side
-Tire, $1300 each for mains, $900 for nose
-Wheel, 5-7.5K
-Antiskid sensor, $2500
-Fix antilock brake motor, $5K
-replace TR actuator or speed brake actuator, $2,500
-Anti-ice valve, $2,500
-Deice boot, $7500 installed for a wing and $3-4K for a tail boot.
-Deice boot ejector valve, $1000

Avionics
-Replace RVSM computer, usually $500 unless you have a Shadin system then it's $5K
-HSI/ADI, $2,500
-Inverter $800
-ASI, VSI, etc. $1000
-An RVSM check is about $1,500
-Autopilot rarely breaks, a computer is 2-5K, a servo is 2K
-Install two 750s, $60Kish depending on the shop
-Install full Garmin panel, Under $300K
-Lighting inverter, $500
-Autopilot preselector, $2,500
-Standby gyro, $1,500
-Generator control unit, $2,500
-Starter gen, overhauled, $1800
-Pressurization solonoid valve, $5,500
-Ailerons, flaps, and airframe parts are cheap
-10K hour inspection, $15K, much much cheaper on the 560.
-Broken Step, $5K

Operating/Owner Costs

-Fuel 150 GPH for a 501, 165 for a 550, 190 for a 560, BLOCK
-120, 140, 180 respectively max power cruise altitude
-90, 110, NO idea for the 560 long range cruise
-Maintenance, me, owning a shop and having near free parts, under 10K a year
-You, basic shop assuming $100/hour, $25K a year
-You, Gold plated sort of shop, $60K a year
-Insurance, 10-30K a year depending on YOU and the plane

---------------------
Narrative: I think you're going to find that these airplanes are extremely well made and rarely break. They are built like little airliners. They like to be flown and do not like to sit. The parts cost I outlined are for serviceable used parts. I haven't found the parts to cost more than any other brand of aircraft and I find they consume less parts on average than a pressurized twin recap. They aren't finicky machines.

Most common squawks I see AND don't see on these:

1) anti-ice idiot light system is complicated. Everything heats but the lights don't extinguish. The solenoid valves can fail if not flown regularly.
2) Rarely see pressurization issues
3) Freon systems are usually neglected on ALL airplanes, including these, usually an expansion valve, leak or receiver dryer
4) Rarely see autopilot issues, it's usually the preselector
5) Missing digits on engine gauges, most live with it
6) Rarely see boot issues, almost never
7) Battery lasts 3-4 years and then fails a cap check, $3,500
8) Oxygen systems can leak, unplug your masks and leave on crew when shutdown
9) Missing placards, $500 for the kit
10) Virtually never see any corrosion of a serious nature
11) Frayed accessory control cable, $1000, rare but I see it.
12) lots of relays and can lose one occasionally; under $1K to replace usually
13) Stator valve (engine), $2,500

--------------------------------

Whatever it costs, it's totally worth it. They are smooth, fast, quiet, safe and enjoyable. If the possibility of any of these numbers scares you then it's not for you. When I see an airplane with a bunch of squawks, it usually means the owner didn't care and ran it into the ground. Now, I am seeing a lot of time and love going back into these machines.

Dip your toes in the water, it's nice.