I just flew our Legend from Aspen to Fort Worth (with two stops). With the Titan O-340 with Lightspeed ignition, I burned 6.6 gph at 2450 to 2500 rpm and around 90 kts TAS. I was between 12,500 through the mountains and 9,500 in the plains when the air got rough.

It seems like the electronic ignition helps reduce the fuel burn. In a regular O-320, I would expect 8 gph for similar performance. The prop may play a role as well.

The Cub craze is hilarious. People want a Cub for whatever reason, but not really the cheap little put put POS they learned to fly in. How many 65 HP with no electrics, basic panel aircraft are really desirable when kits upwards of $100,000 are now minimalistic? Nostalgia-one of the most expensive phases of aviation.

The Cub craze is hilarious. People want a Cub for whatever reason, but not really the cheap little put put POS they learned to fly in. How many 65 HP with no electrics, basic panel aircraft are really desirable when kits upwards of $100,000 are now minimalistic? Nostalgia-one of the most expensive phases of aviation.

Hey, now I resemble that remark! I didn’t learn in a 65 HP put-put! I did my private training in a C-152.

Until I got my tail wheel endorsement, that is. That I did in a 1943 J-3, with no electrical system. And I’ll take mine just like that original beauty!

Bob,

I would plead guilty to being a victim of the Cub craze, except I got addicted 33 years ago at age 18 flying a SuperCub. I moved from a PA-14 to a Super Legend 6 years ago to allow my father go LSA. I get the skepticism directed at the prices of Cub clones, but these airplanes are vast improvements over the J-3 while preserving the pure pleasure of Cub flying.

Cubcrafters, Legend Cub, Aviat, Kitfox etc are selling new single engine airplanes which is great for general aviation. The price spread between new and used Cubs is probably in line with the price spread of new and used Barons and Bonanzas.

Ed

Sorry kind of off topic but just random thoughts on what I’d like to see since discussions of new produced airplanes especially Cub clones always quietly comes back to the cost. Even with the cost it comes back around to the old cub design formula with mods or newer engineered cub clones.

Basically there is a need / market to get people into flying with a nice VFR airplane to go fly in that is nice to look at and has enough useful load to carry two adults, 4 hours fuel capacity at least and some bags. Go better than 90-95 knots and stall really slow with good heat, ventilation and visibility. Excellent rate of climb with that load. 4 place with less fuel is even better for capability but rare in this type of airplane unless Homebuilt or older than mid 1970’s Yes I know about Maules and they are fine but I don’t quite fit well in them and they are not quite my thing with the weight vs6 cylinder vs cabin room. Bearhawk may be better but I have not flown one.

If 2 place I’ll prefer tandem seating.

No bad handling characteristics, electric start, lights for at night. IFR in a pinch if you get caught. Light enough to push in and out of the hangar. Easy enough to get in for the average mid large American. Easy maintenance and parts availability. Crash worthiness with good seats, a chute option, am safe airbags and steel tube structure. Tailwheel is ok I can teach that. Nosewheel is fine too as long as it has some damping not just a spring strut. Why oleos are out of favor now I don’t know but build some dampening in there to replace them. LSA world seems to think die spring nose wheel struts are ok. “think Pogo Stick”

It’s all there just it costs 150-300K with decent avionics as used factory built or near new with latest updates. Sigh.... So I keep herding the old 150hp Pacer around the patch and it’s darn near as fun as long as it’s kept light. And in cruise will pass right by the Cub. I can haul a good load if needed just not out of rough places. But in Pennsylvania there are not a lot of rough places to go. Private strips but still recognizable as a strip. Very little public land here in the East. Pacer has been in the family since my grandfather bought it new in 1954 and will never be for sale.

Kidding aside I have a PA-11 and J-3, I’ve had Vagabonds, Stinson 108’s, flown T crafts, Luscombes, Champs. They are great but not an airplane I would want for out west in the mountains in the summer. For me if I were out in Idaho or high elevation it comes down to Supercub, either real or clone, or a Scout but I really don’t like the tubes in the Scout baggage, Working a PA-12 modded up is ok but they are all basically homebuilts and every one is an individual situation. Some good some bad. All old unless new 4130 fuselages have been purchased. For very slow flying qualities I’ll stick with the Cubs. PA-11 is ok but very useful load limited once I add a second wing tank, C-85 and electrics. Single wing tank and hand propping is fine but starting to become very frowned upon at airports. I really don’t like help if I don’t know the person helping well. I think solo hand propping has been made illegal in Connecticut At least that’s what a J-3 owner told me recently.
The average excited new pilot or tailwheel low slow pilot won’t need a 180 hp type of Cub but it’s fun. Plain 65hp J-3 is fun too but in a different simple way. But try to find one that does not have a long sob story attached as to why it’s in the state it’s in. There always seems to be a hangup. Paperwork, Airfame or engine. I can see why people go for the new airplanes if they have the money. The Carbon Cub under sport pilot comes close but if it is S-LSA and not EAB homebuilt it won’t fit the requirements at the beginning of the post I would like to fly the Legend sometime.

Bring on the kits... It’s really the only way vs a new Part 23 airplane which costs twice or three times my house cost. Factory build programs seem to be a reasonable way to keep quality well up and move a builder to complete the airplane in a very reasonable amount of time. I’m not sure exactly how some are 51% owner built but if Feds are happy then wonderful.

I’d love to bring more people into aviation. I’d much rather deal with the low and slow tailwheel pilots because they usually can really fly their airplanes. I’ll try to sell it all I can and had a flight school for years but you eventually have to have the frank discussion about the unplanned maintenance risks and costs associated with airplane ownership of an old affordable airplane that maybe can do the capabilities I listed. Or try to convince the person to build a homebuilt over several years vs buying one that was put together by someone in their garage. It’s a concept that takes some time to accept with it’s own risks for a lot of money laid out compared to a new car with warranty.
Add in what is needed to get a Private license and they seem to just glaze over and decide after soloing as a bucket list item to go out and buy a pontoon boat or couple 4 wheelers and a tailer so they can go have fun with their family that weekend. No FAA, No check rides, No hassles, Keep toys at home in yard or garage. I can’t say I blame them but it’s sad. I’d consider a mid 70’s 172 as a benchmark for learning to fly in something “modern” that is easy to fly and insurable with some capability but it’s north of 100K to purchase one and get it up to speed now. Possibly up to 150K. It’s just not justifiable for most people that walk in and would like to fly. Yes I know about flying clubs, shared ownership, etc. But you don’t see that with Rv’s cars, boats etc. which we are competing with for leisure activities and where to put their fun money.

Kit has been ordered and hopefully will get it in the October time frame. I elected the 4" wider airframe, 48 gallon tanks, large cargo door, rounded wing tips, larger tail feathers and a few other cool mods. Looking at the Titan O370 with a Cato prop. I have a rough idea for the panel but staying basic except for a GI275 ADI.

All the logistics of the build are coming together to get this done. Hoping to fast track this and have it flying by next summer. I am really looking forward to it.

This ^^^^
I got my Superstol in 2017. So far I have flown it 560 hours. For 25 years my average year like many was 75 to 125 hours. The last 12 months 220 hours in the Superstol and 60 in the Mooney. Find some folks to fly with that do off airport stuff, get them to show you around and the world is now your runway

I don't remember if I posted this. Steve Pearce, Super Cub pilot, mechanic, and good guy did this seminar for Supercub.org on what happens when you do a lot of off airport work. This is worth every second if you fly a taildragger off pavement. He is humble and self-depreciating.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwcUfuTgXEE

I am getting more and more conservative. A near miss with a powerline over the Brazos River made me rethink my mortality a couple of years ago.

You did but it’s worth reposting...except it may scare some out of doing off airport stuff ! LOL
I wouldn’t say “it’s what happens” Just like everything else set your limits and mind your manners. All his accident’s didn’t “have to happen”
I saw the webinar live, pretty interesting.

My brother and I are each building Javron's PA18 narrow body. we are on the home stretch. Both airplanes are covered, wings and tail are on for the final time and completing finishing touches on the fuselage. I just booted up my electrical equipment and did the initial set up.

My goal has been, keep it light. I have spent a lot of time and money on Titanium parts. I used a TI firewall, pedals, torque tube link, sticks, and aft seat cross over. My seat frame weighs 2.8lbs. I hope my seat is 7-8 lbs all in. I'm hoping to be all in at 1100 lbs with a titan 0360.

My bench mark is my early certified SC with a 160 and borer prop. it lands on a postage stamp and flies out of a hole. the log books said it weighed about 900 lbs so 1100 seemed too much. I ultimately put it on scales and it weighed 1125. once I realized this it made my path very clear.

My build is standard fuel in a square tip wing, Narrow body with keller flaps, big tail feathers, 6" extended gear, 31" tires, Acme tail and gear suspension, a whirlwind adjustable prop, titan 0360 engine, cold air plenum system dedicated to cooling the cylinders. (remember these fly slow so cooling cylinders and oil correctly is important). I also have extended baggage with an upper baggage area. I used carbon fiber floor boards that are super strong and light

This set up should allow for a sub 30 stabilized approach to a very short landing. I also believe 75' takes offs may be possible.

My certified cub can land in about 350' with little wind and very poor brakes and take off in about 125'.

My experience with Javron has been unreal! in my opinion Jay makes the best kits on the market hands down. They are built around a very strong frame and an absolutely amazing wing. Jays craftsmanship on every thing he does is top shelf. He is a machinist by trade with a very strong background in restoration and engine building. He is as honest as they come and a true pleasure to deal with. Like anything, there have been a few pains along the way but they are insignificant in the long run.

If anyone was going to build a cub I would not hesitate to send them to Jay. If your in the Minneapolis area feel free to come pick the project apart. you wont hurt my feelings. If you need more info call me 612 229-6019.

My cost is about one year of my life and around 165K. It can be done for less depending on build perimeters. I have float fittings but it will not be on floats. I used a big screen G3X with full engine instrumentation tied to 20R com radio and 45R in out transponder.

Great write up Peter and ditto to everything you said about Jay.

That cold air plenum system you mentioned, is that the kit made by the shop in Montana? I don't have my notes handy but I am interested in that solution.

How much weight did you save with the extensive use of titanium?

You mentioned the 6" extended gear...I'm assuming it was the 3" per side 6" total?

I'm planning on using the X370 with the Cato prop. Did you look at that combo?

And for gods sakes post pictures!!!

That's a great video....thank you for posting that.

Joe,

you chose wisely, welcome to the back country world. it will be hard to find better people on a whole then those who fly in the back country. Most seem to lose the attitude and are humbled by the path they took to get there.

The cold air plenum is a hybrid from two different people. I am about to install the engine for the final time. Once this is done I will finish the transition from the nose bowl directly into the plenum. It is a bit of work but not too difficult. I will tell you more when its done.

The Titanium stuff in simple terms weighs 1/2 of the chromoly assuming dimensions are the same. Aluminum is lighter but not as strong. I used .050 5051 AL for the four cowl channels and bent it. that saved a lot of weight. I could tell you exactly as I weighed everything if it becomes important. thats better for a phone conversation.

Jays wide nose bowl is nice. I have thought about the advantages of a split nose bowl but stayed with Jays.

Nothing on the project is overly complicated. some things are more difficult. it depends on you and any help you use along the way. I spent a lot of time on the cowl. I wanted it to look respectable with clean lines.

I also used a lightened fly wheel from Sky Dynamics. that saved 4 pounds.

As far as the engine and prop.

Im hearing really good things about the Whirlwind ground adjustable prop on the SC. the cato is also very good. I would hold off on a final decision until you need it. By then I will have time and give an honest view of the Whirlwind. I will compare it to my SC which is a very strong performer.

a 370 engine with high compression pistons may be very difficult to cool. some have done it but cooling of both oil and CHT is critical with that set up. What we lose in flying a Bonanza is an appreciation of how well they cool. one of the key factors is the amount of airflow we get in cruise. another is temp at cruising altitude.
the supper cub with big tires is going to cruise sub 100 mph. FLying in the teens in Bonanza is no big deal but flying high in a SC just doesnt feel right. it is not about getting from A to B but everything between A to B. with the lack of speed comes a lack of airflow so efficiency's in cooling are critical to keep the fun factor high.

My jay built Titan 360 is a piece of art to look at. I used a slightly higher compression that will give a little more HP. I stayed below 9 to 1. my certified cub has the 160 mod which is 9 to 1. the issue is I have poor engine instrumentation so I really dont know what its doing.

Inline thrust mod may be some thing for you to think about. makes the airbox a bit taller because the engine is mounted lower in the cowl to compensate for the thrust line. I chose the rigid mount over a swing mount.

I would strongly suggest a tail light in the back of your rudder. these airplane are very hard to see when your in a faster bigger more complicated airplane.

Garmin G3X big screen is really nice. I wired my avionics myself. I put in the auto pilot tabs but did not go with an auto pilot. My Brother did, Jay did, Bill Rusk did.

Nobody I have seen yet can beat Jays workman ship. its frustrating to watch him work something into shape. He makes it look easy. listen to what he says and watch how he does something.

Saving weight is a frame of mind. chose of hardware makes a difference. it may not be much but Im hoping it pays off.

I spent nearly two weeks removing almost every PK screw from the wings and Ailerons. I took each one out one at a time, drilled and counter sunk for a flush rivet and went to the next. This operation made a very smooth wing. my brother stayed with jays wing. in two weeks I wonder if I saved 1/4 lb but it really looks nice.

Peter thank you for again for a really detailed and interesting response. I only have a couple of minutes so this will be a bit brief. And I love the description of differences of A to B with the Cub. That sentence just nailed the whole concept of these airplanes.

I was torn between the 360 and the 370 engine and you bring up excellent points about heat dissipation at the slower speed. I'm hoping the solution that Jay has or the combination of your plenum will be effective. I look forward to seeing your result. Fortunately the guy I have that's essentially doing the build has already discussed the cooling issues so he is on top of it too. I couldn't do this build without him. I think he has built Cubs longer than I've been alive.

But back to the engine... I was really sold on the extra 15 or so ponies with the 370. Jay talked about further advanced options for more horsepower but I elected to go with essentially the stock 370 engine. I have a lot of time to think about it as my budget is penciled out until the spring with the build and not ordering the Titan until then. I have selected the inline mount as well. I like the idea of the Whirlwind prop but not sure about it yet but the Catto 88/44 seems like a happy medium. I briefly considered a constant speed MT prop but after discussing it with Jay between the weight and the cost I scrapped the idea.

Your wing sounds gorgeous......I would love to do that but I really want to get this airplane flying by the end of next summer and that sounded very labor intensive. I know my timeframe is tight but we shall see.

Which auto pilot did they use? I have been going back-and-forth with that one in my head about if I should install one. So with your build did you do the manual or electric trim?

Excellent idea about the tail light. I'm keeping my panel fairly basic with the exception of a Garmin 275 ADI. In fact just this week I'm ordering steam gauges with the Cub faceplates.

I really appreciate your time in writing this stuff up. I will definitely be in touch as my build progresses.