Alex,

"Certified to part 25"

is not the same as:

"We computed takeoff and landing data using part 25 procedures"

Way different...

Mike C.

Alex,

"Certified to part 25"

is not the same as:

"We computed takeoff and landing data using part 25 procedures"

Way different...

Mike C.

By the way - there is one very specific reason why SP jets are certified under Part 23 and not Part 25. Look it up.

Sam - I'm curious about this statement. Better built than what? Usually aircraft built to Part 25 standards are built like tanks. I'm not sure a C501 or a C441 are necessarily better built than a Phenom 100 or a 525.

Take a look at this accident. While on an night instrument approach, the captain of a CJ with 6 passengers onboard, hits a 27 inch diameter utility pole 10 feet above the ground, climbs out and flies for 40 minutes to his alternate 100 miles away without fully realizing what had happened. Power on the utility grid was never interrupted. A farmer finds a piece of the broken pole on the ground with paint marks on it. It wasn't until the utility company eventually contacted the FAA with a piece of the broken pole that they were able to piece together the full story. We discussed this specific accident at length during the last CJP convention, and I would say the CJ is no light weight...

https://reports.aviation-safety.net/201 ... _N61YP.pdf
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20140203-0

On a sidenote, the pilot involved is still flying and hauling people around the country... [/quote]

Hi Alex. Must admit it’s my humble opinion. And I’m comparing dollars to dollars. Always do. As far as corrosion it is my impression the older planes were more adequately painted with anti-corrosion paint than the newer ones. Just an observation. Part 23 or 25 they all seem to be built like tanks to withstand the insult of jet flight. The P100 just doesn’t look that well made to me especially up against the 300. Big difference in price but still a lot of money to get in at any level. The CJ I don’t have an adequate opinion of as I couldn’t begin to even fit into the cockpit. The 501cockpit is as spacious as any I’ve sat in. The M2 didnt have nearly the cabin the 501 does. Performance? Meh. The G3000dangles like a carrot. Keep in mind I’m talking about dollar to dollar. The newer planes seem to have a lot of kinks out there. Even the P300 with too small a battery perhaps. Lot of growing pains demonstrated on forums. Whereas Mark H just keeps flying the pants off a 550. Having talked to 501 pilots they seem to love them. Sure, they have their issues just like a ‘67 Baron but you’re ready and waiting for them. No surprise BS.

As far as a second choice jet the Mustang comes in close though it’s disheartening when the likes of P&W cannot or will not address a bearing issue. If I could have fit into the CJ it might have been a contender but the legacy’s with the Williams are way out there. And that’s just my opinion. As always YMMV.

Hi Sam - I'm not trying to convince anyone to go one way or the other - the 500/550 series with Williams engines have good numbers and are certainly valid choices if they fit the mission and budget. I was just intrigued by your appreciation that a C501 or 441 is better built.

I believe your appreciation as to the way the 525 line is built and its corresponding reliability vs a 500/550 is erroneous, along with the "kinks" issues. When you are ready to move ahead, I would suggest you attend a CJP annual or regional gathering and talk to folks flying the aircraft. You will also have a chance to talk with the Textron reps as well as participate in type specific events organized for each series. 525's are extremely reliable and dependable and there are many of us flying the wings off our aircraft as well people flying the wings off the 500 series with no appreciable difference between one or the other. I also don't know that Phenoms would be substandard with regards to their build quality compared to Citations.

Actually I don’t doubt it at all Alex. Infact I’m sure you are correct. But I’m comparing dollar to dollar I’m $250k ahead because even with 250 HRs behind a G1000 Iknow I don’t need or even want it. I’m not a good enough pilot. I don’t fly often enough. Maybe one day.

It won’t be long Howard and I will be sharing 501 stories.

Best,

Sam

I really can’t speak on the “build” of a 441 and didn’t mean to imply I could. It’s an awesome plane with awesome capabilities. I don’t want a TP though. No more of those twirly things and Vmc roll stuff.

What question are you talking about?

All I was doing was commenting that all the planes you mentioned in your post are FAR 23.

None are FAR 25, despite you calling FAR 25 airplanes "a tank".

Now what built like "a tank" has to do with FAR 25 takeoff and landing data is beyond me.

So I've lost your point. Try again?

Mike C.

525 Citations are built to Part 23 certifications but meet Part 25 performance. Look at the TCDS - http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/fabcb77a6252d576862580ea0064ef26/$FILE/A1WI_Rev_25.pdf. All certifications listed are Part 23.

Nice try Mike. You either have a problem with basic English comprehension or your insufferable arrogance prevents you from accepting when you are wrong - my guess is the later.

What can one run a 501 with Williams engines for? Could 200 hours be done for 200k?

.

I doubt it.

Assuming 200 hours per year:

Engines: $62K ($155/hour/engine on program)
Fuel: $90K (125 gph, $3.60/gal)
Maintenance: $50K ($250/hour?)
Insurance: $15K
Hangar $15K
Misc: $15K

Total: $247K

So $1250/hour, give or take, really depends on your circumstances, your local resources for maintenance, and the quality of the aircraft you buy.

Mike C.

Can you show us an example that sold for $1.3MM.

I looked through Jetnet and saw none at that.

Andrew

What's JetNet? Nobody is going to tell you what they paid for their airplane.

There is a record number of used mini-jets listed for sale and a record number of manufacturers building them. Break out your checkbook and start working the phones.

I'm helping a friend with a purchase right now. Even with the low prices on Mustangs and Phenoms he's still probably going to get a TBM. The mini-jets don't haul enough.

I would agree that it is not possible to know how every single transaction closed, but there are many sources of information and ways to gather reliable market data. JetNet, Amstat, AircraftBluebook, etc. do it every day. Here's a video from JetNet's website and how it can help - having market intelligence from the get-go is certainly more efficient than working the phones.

[youtube]https://youtu.be/evK3hu9BpLs[/youtube]