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 Post subject: Re: Operating Costs of C340 vs 414/421?
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2017, 18:24 
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Joined: 08/20/09
Posts: 2660
Post Likes: +2234
Company: Jcrane, Inc.
Location: KVES Greenville, OH
Aircraft: C441, RV7A
If you get serious about a 421C I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the trailing link gear. Not sure why that's such a 'thing'. Added weight vs smoother landings :scratch: ...get better at smooth landings.

I'll attach the approved quotes from our first and second annual, we're almost to our third and expect it to be less. Like Mr. Mullen, we don't mind spending a few $ to get things right. If it needs fixed, let's fix it. (will probably catch some flak for a few items on these lists, don't care, we want it to be as near 100% as can be)
We've definitely had a few maintenance pains, some documented here, but our dispatch reliability has been very good, no complaints.

Edit: In all fairness, I should add that we have spent quite a bit of time dealing with minor issues such as faulty EGT probes, A/C problems, and what not, which isn't included on the annuals.


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Jack
N441M N107XX


Last edited on 19 Aug 2017, 18:41, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Operating Costs of C340 vs 414/421?
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2017, 18:31 
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Joined: 08/20/09
Posts: 2660
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Company: Jcrane, Inc.
Location: KVES Greenville, OH
Aircraft: C441, RV7A
Also, we have one engine at 1,742 hobbs time (tbo 1,600). Looks great inside.

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Jack
N441M N107XX


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 Post subject: Re: Operating Costs of C340 vs 414/421?
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2017, 18:32 
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Joined: 11/19/14
Posts: 134
Post Likes: +66
Location: St. Louis, MO (KSUS)
Aircraft: 1994 Bonanza A36
Bob, I have been in an Aerostar and, while they are a great aircraft, they just don't seem to fit what we like. They are very cramped and have hardly any baggage space and thats a drawback for us.


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 Post subject: Re: Operating Costs of C340 vs 414/421?
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2017, 18:52 
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Joined: 07/21/08
Posts: 5836
Post Likes: +7285
Location: Decatur, TX (XA99)
Aircraft: 1979 Bonanza A36
Username Protected wrote:
If you get serious about a 421C I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the trailing link gear. Not sure why that's such a 'thing'. Added weight vs smoother landings :scratch: ...get better at smooth landings.

I'll attach the approved quotes from our first and second annual, we're almost to our third and expect it to be less. Like Mr. Mullen, we don't mind spending a few $ to get things right. If it needs fixed, let's fix it. (will probably catch some flak for a few items on these lists, don't care, we want it to be as near 100% as can be)
We've definitely had a few maintenance pains, some documented here, but our dispatch reliability has been very good, no complaints.

Edit: In all fairness, I should add that we have spent quite a bit of time dealing with minor issues such as faulty EGT probes, A/C problems, and what not, which isn't included on the annuals.

Item 43 on the 2016 annual looks a little odd. Shows $4,000.00 labor for 4 hours.

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 Post subject: Re: Operating Costs of C340 vs 414/421?
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2017, 19:08 
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Joined: 01/24/10
Posts: 7435
Post Likes: +5127
Location: Concord , CA (KCCR)
Aircraft: 1967 Baron B55
First most twin Cessna' have the baggage light and courtesy lights wired so they are OFF when the master is off. Nothing worse than coming back to your plane to leave after a nice vacation and find the battery dead because someone left a baggage light on. I have the CB pulled and marked all the time I. My 421C.

Second educate your self well before buying a 421B or C, 340 or 414. Next hire someone who is a recognized expert on That model. I hired Peter Danto to find my 421C. He turned down 10 planes that I wanted to buy before he approved the eleventh. He found a lot of hidden items that others had missed or tried to cover up.

Third, don't get blinded by the chrome!!! Fancy paint, new interiors and glittering avionics. Buy the lowest time NDH airplane with no missing logs or paperwork you can find. You want the best airframe and engines you can find for your budget.

Fourth ,make sure your budget is big enough to operate your 340, 414 and 421 with money left over to take your family to nice places. After you buy a plane in good condition figure 10 to 15 percent of the purchase price for the first annual, then about 8,000 per year and every 5 years add an extra 5 to 7 thousand.

After you have bought your "GOOD Condition" 421 you should budget 500 to 600 dollars an hour for all operating costs. Based on 100 hours per year you need a budget of 60,000 plus an extra 20 to 40,000 to travel to nice vacations.

IMHO If 80,000 to 100,000 a year is not in your budget don't buy a 421 or any Pressurized piston twin.

There is nothing worse than being stuck AOG while on vacation or business because you bought Junk or were cheap on MX. Mine is highly maintained plane and the annuals are 12 to 15,000 per year.
Next year I will be just past TBO on my current factory NEW engines that are running great at 1600 hours. Next year at 1800 hours I am installing everything Factory new Firewall forward. My total estimate is just under 200,000 for both sides.


Last edited on 19 Aug 2017, 21:46, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Operating Costs of C340 vs 414/421?
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2017, 19:10 
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Joined: 08/20/09
Posts: 2660
Post Likes: +2234
Company: Jcrane, Inc.
Location: KVES Greenville, OH
Aircraft: C441, RV7A
Username Protected wrote:
Item 43 on the 2016 annual looks a little odd. Shows $4,000.00 labor for 4 hours.

Yea that was a typo. Actuator rebuild was 4k.

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Jack
N441M N107XX


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 Post subject: Re: Operating Costs of C340 vs 414/421?
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2017, 19:13 
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Joined: 07/21/08
Posts: 5836
Post Likes: +7285
Location: Decatur, TX (XA99)
Aircraft: 1979 Bonanza A36
Username Protected wrote:
Yea that was a typo. Actuator rebuild was 4k.

Thats what I figured, but wanted to be sure. I had a $5,000.00 error on my 2016 annual because a zero got added to the amount of some window brackets. That was a lot of brackets :bugeye:

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 Post subject: Re: Operating Costs of C340 vs 414/421?
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2017, 20:38 
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Joined: 09/07/09
Posts: 1040
Post Likes: +403
Company: Blue Aviation
Location: Bridgeport Texas
Aircraft: C414A/KA 200/CE-500
Username Protected wrote:
If you get serious about a 421C I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the trailing link gear. Not sure why that's such a 'thing'. Added weight vs smoother landings :scratch: ...get better at smooth landings.

I'll attach the approved quotes from our first and second annual, we're almost to our third and expect it to be less. Like Mr. Mullen, we don't mind spending a few $ to get things right. If it needs fixed, let's fix it. (will probably catch some flak for a few items on these lists, don't care, we want it to be as near 100% as can be)
We've definitely had a few maintenance pains, some documented here, but our dispatch reliability has been very good, no complaints.

Edit: In all fairness, I should add that we have spent quite a bit of time dealing with minor issues such as faulty EGT probes, A/C problems, and what not, which isn't included on the annuals.


U have been screwed sir.

Way too ambiguous on several charges to your account.

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KA 200, CE-550


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 Post subject: Re: Operating Costs of C340 vs 414/421?
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2017, 20:40 
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Joined: 06/28/09
Posts: 14424
Post Likes: +9557
Location: Walnut Creek, CA (KCCR)
Aircraft: 1962 Twin Bonanza
What pisses me off about Jack's bill is the things like .5 labor and $47 to tighten a screw. YGBSM. I'd have a talk to the owner of that shop... it took more time to write that up than to do it.

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 Post subject: Re: Operating Costs of C340 vs 414/421?
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2017, 20:42 
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Joined: 09/07/09
Posts: 1040
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Company: Blue Aviation
Location: Bridgeport Texas
Aircraft: C414A/KA 200/CE-500
Username Protected wrote:
What pisses me off about Jack's bill is the things like .5 labor and $47 to tighten a screw. YGBSM. I'd have a talk to the owner of that shop... it took more time to write that up than to do it.



Exactly WTF I was fixing to type. Just be involved in ur maintenance gee wizz ur $20 ur self to death.

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KA 200, CE-550


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 Post subject: Re: Operating Costs of C340 vs 414/421?
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2017, 20:57 
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Joined: 12/25/12
Posts: 3919
Post Likes: +4177
Location: KRHV San Jose, CA
Aircraft: A36, R44, C525
Get a 421. Join the kinda big boys club before buying a jet. Momma will love the plane. We only have four seats in ours and beds in the back. Flat floor. Family sleeps like babys in the back while you spend a shitload of money in the front. If that doesnt sound good buy a cheap turbine MU2.

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 Post subject: Re: Operating Costs of C340 vs 414/421?
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2017, 21:00 
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Joined: 01/08/10
Posts: 713
Post Likes: +219
Location: 45G - Brighton, MI.
Aircraft: V35A
This is what impresses me about beechtalk.

I too am interested in buying a twin Cessna so I joined the twin Cessna group. I check it every other day or so and little has changed.

And yet in the Brand X forum of beechtalk you have 4 pages of replies to a question that was posted a little over 24 hours ago.


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 Post subject: Re: Operating Costs of C340 vs 414/421?
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2017, 21:22 
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Joined: 02/13/10
Posts: 20355
Post Likes: +25447
Location: Castle Rock, Colorado
Aircraft: Prior C310,BE33,SR22
Username Protected wrote:
This is what impresses me about beechtalk.

I too am interested in buying a twin Cessna so I joined the twin Cessna group. I check it every other day or so and little has changed.

And yet in the Brand X forum of beechtalk you have 4 pages of replies to a question that was posted a little over 24 hours ago.

The Twin Cessna Flyer group has 1600 members; BeechTalk has 44,750 members.

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Head out on the highway
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 Post subject: Re: Operating Costs of C340 vs 414/421?
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2017, 21:45 
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Joined: 08/20/09
Posts: 2660
Post Likes: +2234
Company: Jcrane, Inc.
Location: KVES Greenville, OH
Aircraft: C441, RV7A
Username Protected wrote:
If you get serious about a 421C I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the trailing link gear. Not sure why that's such a 'thing'. Added weight vs smoother landings :scratch: ...get better at smooth landings.

I'll attach the approved quotes from our first and second annual, we're almost to our third and expect it to be less. Like Mr. Mullen, we don't mind spending a few $ to get things right. If it needs fixed, let's fix it. (will probably catch some flak for a few items on these lists, don't care, we want it to be as near 100% as can be)
We've definitely had a few maintenance pains, some documented here, but our dispatch reliability has been very good, no complaints.

Edit: In all fairness, I should add that we have spent quite a bit of time dealing with minor issues such as faulty EGT probes, A/C problems, and what not, which isn't included on the annuals.


U have been screwed sir.

Way too ambiguous on several charges to your account.

Lol. Did you miss the don't care??

Going to bat over a few hundred bucks on a $20,000 invoice, with one of the best twin Cessna shops in the country, ain't my style. They're good people and do good work.

YMMV
_________________
Jack
N441M N107XX


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 Post subject: Re: Operating Costs of C340 vs 414/421?
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2017, 21:55 
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Joined: 08/20/09
Posts: 2660
Post Likes: +2234
Company: Jcrane, Inc.
Location: KVES Greenville, OH
Aircraft: C441, RV7A
Username Protected wrote:
First most twin Cessna' have the baggage light and courtesy lights wired so they are OFF when the master is off. Nothing worse than coming back to your plane to leave after a nice vacation and find the battery dead because someone left a baggage light on. I have the CB pulled and marked all the time I. My 421C.

Second educate your self well before buying a 421B or C, 340 or 414. Next hire someone who is a recognized expert on That model. I hired Peter Danto to find my 421C. He turned down 10 planes that I wanted to buy before he approved the eleventh. He found a lot of hidden items that others had missed or tried to cover up.

Third, don't get blinded by the chrome!!! Fancy paint, new interiors and glittering avionics. Buy the lowest time NDH airplane with no missing logs or paperwork you can find. You want the best airframe and engines you can find for your budget.

Fourth ,make sure your budget is big enough to operate your 340, 414 and 421 with money left over to take your family to nice places. After you buy a plane in good condition figure 10 to 15 percent of the purchase price for the first annual, then about 8,000 per year and every 5 years add an extra 5 to 7 thousand.

After you have bought your "GOOD Condition" 421 you should budget 500 to 600 dollars an hour for all operating costs. Based on 100 hours per year you need a budget of 60,000 plus an extra 20 to 40,000 to travel to nice vacations.

IMHO If 80,000 to 100,000 a year is not in your budget don't buy a 421 or any Pressurized piston twin.

There is nothing worse than being stuck AOG while on vacation or business because you bought Junk or were cheap on MX. Mine is highly maintained plane and the annuals are 12 to 15,000 per year.
Next year I will be just past TBO on my current factory NEW engines that are running great at 1600 hours. Next year at 1800 hours I am installing everything Factory new Firewall forward. My total estimate is just under 200,000 for both sides.

Well said.
Your numbers are low for our first 3 yr avg, but I think we'll hit that avg after 5. (other than those pesky overhauls :D )

_________________
Jack
N441M N107XX


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