12 Jun 2025, 13:32 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Allen Wolpert's Magic Carpet Posted: 08 Jan 2016, 03:34 |
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Joined: 11/15/09 Posts: 1856 Post Likes: +1353 Location: Red Deer, Alberta (CRE5/CYQF)
Aircraft: M20E/Bell47
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Username Protected wrote: ... BTW, I really wanted to make you an offer on the A*. Just not quite there yet. I'm glad you were able to get her sold. ... Get ready then, if Stan bought it...it could be for sale again any day now. Glenn
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Post subject: Re: Allen Wolpert's Magic Carpet Posted: 08 Jan 2016, 03:51 |
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Joined: 12/17/13 Posts: 6652 Post Likes: +5959 Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Aerostar Superstar 2
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Username Protected wrote: I would prefer a commander but the short MU-2 is a good airplane.
For a million less dollars than a mustang you can go to more places and arrive within 5 minutes of the mustang.
Not the ramp presence of a jet but a lot more capability., Good point. 290kts on 58gal/hr on a Jetprop 1000. And although a Mustang is a lot more efficient than the earlier Citations, Bruce Byerly does a good comparison against a Citation II: 355kts, at 150gal/hr. That's three times as much fuel to 65kts faster. http://www.eagle-creek.com/2015/05/twin-commander-market-report-falling-for-the-magic-of-great-legacy-aircraft/
_________________ Without love, where would you be now?
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Post subject: Re: Allen Wolpert's Magic Carpet Posted: 08 Jan 2016, 07:52 |
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Joined: 01/09/13 Posts: 1249 Post Likes: +246 Location: Frederick , MD (KHGR)
Aircraft: C421 B36TC 58P
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Username Protected wrote: A compromise would be a C560 Citation V. You can put the G600/GTN750 package in it. CJ3 performance for $1.5 million. Higher fuel burn but at Jason says...cheap these days. I pay $1.90 in Scottsdale. MArk - Agree.... IMO- There has to be a break point when making this step if your concerned about the dollars and cents.... The jump from $400K to 1.5M is different than $400K to 3.5M Craig - What about the Premier Jet.. I see they are priced for 1M-1.5M these days....
_________________ Good Luck,
Tim -------------------
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Post subject: Re: Allen Wolpert's Magic Carpet Posted: 08 Jan 2016, 10:53 |
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Joined: 09/02/09 Posts: 8675 Post Likes: +9196 Company: OAA Location: Oklahoma City - PWA/Calistoga KSTS
Aircraft: UMF3, UBF 2, P180 II
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Username Protected wrote: Don't forget to factor the capital cost- which is the difference maker on a $400K vs a 3.5M Of course having the business right off is another factor I've run the numbers on a bunch of jets and turboprops. The biggest expense for the jets, particularly later model more expensive versions is capital carrying cost and depreciation. They tend to dwarf everything else and drive the per mile cost up for a lower volume flier. Obviously, like all fixed costs the capital expense gets cheaper per mile the more you fly - but not quite the same with depreciation. With the older airframes the increased fuel burns and higher maintenance costs tend to come to equilibrium with lower capital and depreciation expense. There's no free lunch. The other big issue, that doesn't get talked about much is cost of time. Tim points out that there is a 30 minute time difference on a short trip between the MU2 and CJ2+. If you're flying for fun that may not matter. But when you're flying for business, particularly with more than one person, the cost adds up. You can add hours to your day by working longer until you can't. Then that 30 minutes begins to matter. And if the plane is newer, breaks less frequently and is easier to operate that saves time which again, if you're managing the plane yourself saves money (in your time). The more your time is worth the bigger the issue is.
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Post subject: Re: Allen Wolpert's Magic Carpet Posted: 08 Jan 2016, 10:56 |
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Joined: 09/02/09 Posts: 8675 Post Likes: +9196 Company: OAA Location: Oklahoma City - PWA/Calistoga KSTS
Aircraft: UMF3, UBF 2, P180 II
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Username Protected wrote: A compromise would be a C560 Citation V. You can put the G600/GTN750 package in it. CJ3 performance for $1.5 million. Higher fuel burn but at Jason says...cheap these days. I pay $1.90 in Scottsdale. Low fuel cost may be a siren song that causes one to crash against the rocks financially though. Yesterday oil was $33 a barrel. What will it be during the anticipated hold period for the plane? C&D was using $6+ for JetA in their cost pro formas a year ago. That creates a much different cost picture for an old thirsty jet.
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Post subject: Re: Allen Wolpert's Magic Carpet Posted: 08 Jan 2016, 11:01 |
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Joined: 07/23/09 Posts: 1115 Post Likes: +630 Location: KSJT
Aircraft: PC-24 Citabria 7GCBC
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Username Protected wrote: A compromise would be a C560 Citation V. You can put the G600/GTN750 package in it. CJ3 performance for $1.5 million. Higher fuel burn but at Jason says...cheap these days. I pay $1.90 in Scottsdale. Mark, What program are you using for that comparison? That's pretty neat how it compares the different leg lengths. A V could bring a lot of value to the table depending on how much you fly and the price of fuel. Right now, it's not a bad time to own a jet! Attachment: Capture.PNG
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Post subject: Re: Allen Wolpert's Magic Carpet Posted: 08 Jan 2016, 11:07 |
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Joined: 01/16/11 Posts: 11068 Post Likes: +7095 Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Aircraft: PC12NG, G3Tat
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Username Protected wrote: A compromise would be a C560 Citation V. You can put the G600/GTN750 package in it. CJ3 performance for $1.5 million. Higher fuel burn but at Jason says...cheap these days. I pay $1.90 in Scottsdale. Low fuel cost may be a siren song that causes one to crash against the rocks financially though. Yesterday oil was $33 a barrel. What will it be during the anticipated hold period for the plane? C&D was using $6+ for JetA in their cost pro formas a year ago. That creates a much different cost picture for an old thirsty jet.
If JetA goes to $6, AvGas will go to $12
I think that stable JetA prices will abound. There's so much production and tyrannical governments need it to protect their fiefdoms. If the jack it up too much, they'll love most of the car gas within 2-3 years. There's too many electric options there now.
I believe it to be a very good time to be thinking about a turbine..... come'on in Tony
_________________ ---Rusty Shoe Keeper---
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Post subject: Re: Allen Wolpert's Magic Carpet Posted: 08 Jan 2016, 11:08 |
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Joined: 05/29/13 Posts: 14343 Post Likes: +12084 Company: Easy Ice, LLC Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
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Username Protected wrote: I agree, Tony.
Thoughts.
1. Some will get lured into a twin or TP or even a jet based on low fuel prices today, only to . . .
2. Find themselves paying 2 to 3 times as much for fuel in a few years, which . . .
3. Drives them to try to sell when fuel prices are high and no one wants a fuel-hungre twin/TP/jet. Broadly speaking it is 75/gal more per hour. Or 75,000 gal every 1000 hours. $375,000 more in fuel costs at $5 a gallon but two million less in capex. Worth a thought.
_________________ Mark Hangen Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson) Power of the Turbine "Jet Elite"
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Post subject: Re: Allen Wolpert's Magic Carpet Posted: 08 Jan 2016, 11:10 |
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Joined: 05/29/13 Posts: 14343 Post Likes: +12084 Company: Easy Ice, LLC Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
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Username Protected wrote: A compromise would be a C560 Citation V. You can put the G600/GTN750 package in it. CJ3 performance for $1.5 million. Higher fuel burn but at Jason says...cheap these days. I pay $1.90 in Scottsdale. Mark, What program are you using for that comparison? That's pretty neat how it compares the different leg lengths. A V could bring a lot of value to the table depending on how much you fly and the price of fuel. Right now, it's not a bad time to own a jet! Attachment: Capture.PNG
It is a Citation comparison tool available to CJP members. It's is eye opening.
_________________ Mark Hangen Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson) Power of the Turbine "Jet Elite"
Last edited on 08 Jan 2016, 11:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Post subject: Re: Allen Wolpert's Magic Carpet Posted: 08 Jan 2016, 11:45 |
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Joined: 01/31/09 Posts: 5193 Post Likes: +3032 Location: Northern NJ
Aircraft: SR22;CJ2+;C510
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Username Protected wrote: A compromise would be a C560 Citation V. You can put the G600/GTN750 package in it. CJ3 performance for $1.5 million. Higher fuel burn but at Jason says...cheap these days. I pay $1.90 in Scottsdale. Mark, What program are you using for that comparison? That's pretty neat how it compares the different leg lengths.
That table comes from the Aircraft Comparison feature in the Citation Jet Pilots website. One of the member benefits.
_________________ Allen
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Post subject: Re: Allen Wolpert's Magic Carpet Posted: 08 Jan 2016, 11:54 |
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Joined: 08/09/11 Posts: 1959 Post Likes: +2635 Company: Naples Jet Center Location: KAPF KPIA
Aircraft: EMB500 AC95 AEST
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Quick data point fwiw, yesterday in the CJ2 I flew out to Marsh Harbor and back in the 20's (could not get higher), 253 nm as the crow flies. Vfr weather so no delays. Burned 2,250 lbs round trip. That's 1.5 nm per gallon. Just sayin. Fantastic plane and a joy to fly. The Collins is rock solid but the joke at Flightsafety is that the pilot's job is to act as an interpreter trying to get Collins/Universal/Garmin and even King to play together in that cockpit. edit: Just saw this: http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ ... uct-lineupAnother data point, I flew to North Caicos in the Commander awhile back. 596nm direct and the return on 2,500 lbs of fuel total.
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