I think you should buy a 441. I realize you're in "jet lust" right now, but I've been reading your posts for months. You strike me as a numbers guy who deals in logic rather than emotion (like the rest of us). A 441 is the plane for you. Jets don't do "numbers" very well unless you get very mission specific.

I'd have to agree, a 441 is an incredible plane. If you get a -10, 441, you have a big comfortable plane that can go 2000nm at 300+ ktas. They are also, very easy to fly. The problem with the 441 is the price and most of the fleet has a lot of hours on the AF. A good 441 will cost 1.2-1.3m. At those prices, I'd have to be looking at Citation SIIs or even better a Sierra conversion CII.

I have also, lusted for a Merlin III with -10s. Their cabins are second to none, but I'd be leery of their MX costs. They are notorious for leaking wet wing tanks. On the positive side, unlike many other TPs, the don't have a lot of calendar limited parts. I've also heard that they can be a handful single pilot.

BTW, when I had my 421, we would fill the plane (mainly the nose) with a minivan full of junk and go. I was very concerned that my short body MU2 would not be able handle my family's needs. I was wrong. I was able to get 3 36" roller duffles, 2 sets of golf clubs, 3 overstuffed hanging bags and 2 carry bags, all in the baggage compartments. I also took out 1 seat so I could carry a large flat screen tv. The only thing my 421 could carry that the MU2 couldn't was a bicycle. I did that on a 1200nm trip, with plenty of reserves. (non-stop in 4 hours)

Most of them are -10N now, rare to find an original -8.

All 11 of the 441s listed on controller.com are -10N converted.

Mike C.

If my emotion wants it, my logic will justify it.

Mike C.

If my emotion wants it, my logic will justify it.

Mike C.

It's been interesting following the transitions and thought processes you guys have gone through in your aviation lives. The big step up from a high performance single that gives the best bang for the buck is a difficult decision. I've enjoyed the honesty and willingness you have shared in assisting others of us that will consider these same purchases in time. Emotion is fun then reality must set in.

The 441 was on my short list. It's a good airplane. You need to make sure you buy one already RVSM approved. Not as easy or as cheap as you think.

Even approved airplanes need the RVSM approval transferred to the new operator.

RVSM is a ongoing cost not a one time expense.

As a certified Piper disliker, it does pain me to say there is one TP to rule them all: Cheyenne 400LS. That thing is a friggin' beast! Faster, further, higher, longer than anything else in it's class. 6000fpm climb, 350kts. It's the only TP twin that can give the P180 a run for its money in top speed - burning 20% less! Holy moley!

Given enough money to own and fly a 400LS, I'd buy a jet instead.

Mike C.

Give enough money to own and fly a 400LS, I'd buy a jet instead.

Mike C.

What is the ongoing cost?

Don't overlook the 400LS.. prices aren't that bad. Had ours for a little over 10 years. No parts issues, maint has been very reasonable. Jet like performance on a lot less fuel. Do have the engines on MSP, just for peace of mind on long term upkeep. Airplane is very easy to fly, motors along on one really nice. Training has not been an issue. Insurance not bad either. Only thing we don't like about it is the Dowty props, so its presently up at JA Aircenter getting as set of MTs fitted.

My brother flies it at 280-290, I fly it up at 350-390.. have had it to 410, but had to burn off a little fuel (took off at max GW) to help the final climb to 410. Gets to 350-370 very easy. We like it.

Comparing a Citation 501SP Eagle II (Williams FJ44-2A), it comes pretty close. It is about 10% less range, but is faster and carries about the same. The fuel usage is pretty close, maybe 20% more per mile. On a pretty long trip, that may be 100 gallons more, $300, relatively insignificant on airplanes like these.

The Eagle II carries 100 gallons more fuel than the 400LS and has a claimed range of 1987 nm. 400LS claimed range is 2,200 nm. Not clear those numbers are based on the same assumptions, though, so skepticism is in order.

I bet the Eagle II costs less per hour to operate than the 400LS. The engine programs on the FJ44-2A run about $120/hr/eng, the TPE331-14 run about $250/hr/eng, so that more than makes up for the extra fuel burn just in that. The Dowty-Rotol prop overhauls on the 400LS are breathtaking, but you can buy the MT prop instead (though it is $100K).

So overall, money to buy, maintain, fuel, and fly, I think a jet can be about the same as the 400LS.

Mike C.

What does that cost?

I've asked 400LS owners and have gotten numbers between $400 and $550 per hour for the pair.

I find that to be a very high price. Over a 5000 TBO, $2.0M to $2.75M for a set of engines. Wow.


The entire fleet will be MT over the next prop overhaul cycle. DR is losing a lot of money by overpricing their overhauls.

Mike C.

approx $180/engine/hr