BeechTalk - BT

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Jan 2015, 12:10

Username Protected wrote:

I understand the roll control spoilers require different flying techniques

Actually, they don't.

Lots of people focus in on that difference. During flying, it make almost no difference. The only two noticeable effects are that low speed roll control is good and positive (unlike ailerons which get mushy), and that during engine out, you want to trim out roll which improves OEI climb rate a little (like 50 FPM), and trimming that out is natural regardless.

If you were never told it was spoilers, I doubt you would notice.

In contrast to the spoilers, an area of considerable difference is engine operations. The MU2 is no different than other TPE331 powered aircraft, so this isn't MU2 specific, but the TPE331 has a lot of underlying complexity to it that the pilot should understand. This is stuff like underspeed governor, overspeed governor, prop governor, beta tube, pitch control, feathering valve, NTS system, starting, fuel controller, etc.

In actual use, the engines are fairly simple, but to understand how it all works is not.

I'm convinced that if pilots only knew the TPE331 and then they wanted to transition to a 421 with GTSIO-520 piston engines, it would take as much if not longer to explain that. Pistons, valves, spark plugs, magnetos, mixture, turbo, intercooler, LOP, "red box", etc.

For example, consider this LET L200D cockpit, a piston twin, and look at all those knobs all the same size, shape, and color! Now tell me a piston twin is simpler...

Attachment:

l200d-cockpit-1.png

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Jan 2015, 12:22

Username Protected wrote:

The issue with a mentor pilot to me is same as the two-crew problem for some older jets:

The coordination required to pull it off is significant if you're planning on using the airplane normally and taking a mentor pilot along. If you're just planning to hire a day-rate mentor for 6 days and fly 8+ hours a day around the country to get the time knocked off, the coordination effort is lowered (but you also just lit $50K on fire to get a training requirement checked off, and it's not clear that flying 50 hours in 6 days of a single weather pattern is as good as spreading those 50 hours out over 6 months of actual, purposeful trips). You're buying an airplane with greater capability (fewer weather scrubs and probably fewer mechanical scrubs) and penalizing it with mentor pilot availability scrubs for the first year/6 months.

I suppose one could "hire" a mentor pilot with a significant retainer to be at your beck and call and still come out money (and training value) ahead.

I don't think the $500/day is an issue with mentoring. If someone silently stole $500/day from my bank account the first 20 times I flew the 58P, I'd have never noticed it or, if I did, it would have never bothered me. What would really rankle me is having a trip I wanted to take in my awesome new airplane and find that I have to flip 2 coins and if they both come up tails, then I scrub the flight (assuming 25% of the time I couldn't get a mentor pilot with a compatible schedule).

Well articulated Jim - those are my same thoughts exactly. I suppose if you live in a metro area with lots of MU2s flying around and a 'pool' of potential mentor pilots, this could be mitigated. I have only ever occasionally seen an MU2 around NW Ohio and I would guess my only option would be to hire a pilot to camp out here until I worked off my time. To me, that's a significant hassle, cost and burden compared to other options I'm considering.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Jan 2015, 12:24

Don,

I wouldn't feel that this was an issue. If you have a decent amount of twin time, I'd be surprised if the insurance company mandated any mentor pilot time for you...

Dave

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Jan 2015, 12:30

The MU-2, so eazy a caveman could fly it! Sorry couldn't resist.

The MU-2 is a far superior aircraft when it comes to efficiency and performance than a King Air. The downside is that it is a bit more complicated to operate than a King Air. Here's a video link to it's first flight, which was shortly after the King Air's first flight.

[YouTube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-rA1Sv9V5E&feature=youtu.be[/YouTube]

I have no idea how to make that link show up as a video! :bang:

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Jan 2015, 12:30

Username Protected wrote:

The coordination required to pull it off is significant if you're planning on using the airplane normally and taking a mentor pilot along.

I did that.

I had zero problems or canceled flights due to this.

Let's say I had a flight a week from today. Biz trip to some client. Arrange it with my mentor by email. If he isn't available, check my backup mentor. I never needed a third choice. Flew every mission on time. Mentor sits at destination airport, do my business, fly back.

I admit that during the mentor time I did not tend to plan longer than one day trips. However, that could be done with some arrangement. Note that you can do a LOT in one day with an MU2!

Quote:

If you're just planning to hire a day-rate mentor for 6 days and fly 8+ hours a day around the country to get the time knocked off, the coordination effort is lowered (but you also just lit $50K on fire to get a training requirement checked off, and it's not clear that flying 50 hours in 6 days of a single weather pattern is as good as spreading those 50 hours out over 6 months of actual, purposeful trips).

I agree, this isn't in the spirit of a mentor arrangement but it does meet the rules. I did not do that, instead I used the plane pretty much as intended during this time.

Quote:

You're buying an airplane with greater capability (fewer weather scrubs and probably fewer mechanical scrubs) and penalizing it with mentor pilot availability scrubs for the first year/6 months.

Didn't happen to me.

Mentoring is a one time occurrence. If you can't stomach it, you should avoid turbines in general.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Jan 2015, 12:37

Username Protected wrote:

Don,

I wouldn't feel that this was an issue. If you have a decent amount of twin time, I'd be surprised if the insurance company mandated any mentor pilot time for you...

Dave

Dave, have you heard any anecdotal feedback regarding this?

Ex: Pilot A with 100 ME time was required to do XX hrs of mentor flying while Pilot B with 500 ME time was required to do XX hrs of mentor flying.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Jan 2015, 12:43

Username Protected wrote:

The MU-2, so eazy a caveman could fly it!

Some did.

May they rest in peace.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Jan 2015, 12:48

With an Mu2 it is more important to have the RIGHT mentor.
It would be counter-productive to take a non-Mu2 pilot on your first flights in my opinion. Wouldn't need to be a CFI, just an experienced Mu2 pilot. If none available the "right" mentor would work.

Frankly I just got in the plane and flew away after I completed initial in Salina. But I had turbine time and a second pilot who also complete school with me.

Flying the Mu as a Crew is a pleasure to me.
Flying the 31 as a crew is an 'exercise' as there are only like 4 switches and it takes excellent discipline to stay away from the 3 things the copilot is supposed to do.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Jan 2015, 12:49

Username Protected wrote:

I would guess my only option would be to hire a pilot to camp out here until I worked off my time.

If you want your aircraft use to be utterly spontaneous, then yes, you need "staff" at your beck and call, but only until the insurance/SFAR requirements are met.

If you can plan flights in advance, it would be a very odd day you can't find a mentor available to come to you.

If you have serious interest, I can ask around and see who would be interested in mentoring a new MU2 pilot out of KTOL.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Jan 2015, 13:05

Username Protected wrote:

I understand the roll control spoilers require different flying techniques

Actually, they don't.

Lots of people focus in on that difference. During flying, it make almost no difference. The only two noticeable effects are that low speed roll control is good and positive (unlike ailerons which get mushy), and that during engine out, you want to trim out roll which improves OEI climb rate a little (like 50 FPM), and trimming that out is natural regardless.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Jan 2015, 13:23

Username Protected wrote:

If you have serious interest, I can ask around and see who would be interested in mentoring a new MU2 pilot out of KTOL.

Mike C.

I'm at least a year away from this next step Mike but thanks very much for the offer. When the company coffers begin to bulge, I'll certainly reach out to you.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Jan 2015, 15:18

I've made my last two transitions (pa56>a55>421) with no required mentoring. This wasn't ideal but practicality and convenience won out over the advantages of a mentor. I compensated by flying day VFR and 500-1000 under gross in the A55 until I was quite comfortable.

That said, the last mu2 accident was a guy who died on his first solo flight after mishandling an engine failure that was likely self-induced. If I ever get in an mu2, in taking a mentor regardless of what insurance requires.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Jan 2015, 15:46

Username Protected wrote:

I've made my last two transitions (pa56>a55>421) with no required mentoring. This wasn't ideal but practicality and convenience won out over the advantages of a mentor. I compensated by flying day VFR and 500-1000 under gross in the A55 until I was quite comfortable.

That said, the last mu2 accident was a guy who died on his first solo flight after mishandling an engine failure that was likely self-induced. If I ever get in an mu2, in taking a mentor regardless of what insurance requires.

I think I would've done mentor time in your pa56 as well Charles, given the very few who have actual experience with them... :duck:

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Jan 2015, 15:49

Username Protected wrote:

Dave, have you heard any anecdotal feedback regarding this?

Ex: Pilot A with 100 ME time was required to do XX hrs of mentor flying while Pilot B with 500 ME time was required to do XX hrs of mentor flying.

I think it is a function of total time. I think if you are in the 1000 hours TT and at least 100 hours ME time, you would likely be insurable without mentor time if you did the training the company accepted. I bought my insurance through Tom Johnson (Airpower Insurance, an MU-2 owner and Beechtalk member and supporter). He could probably discuss your specific situation with you and give you a better feel as he deals with people every day...I think he brokers probably 30-40% of the US MU-2 fleet.... He's far more qualified than I am to comment on this as I am only familiar with my own specific case...

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Jan 2015, 16:50

There is not set formula for transition training. Mentor time, etc.
Depends so much on the overall profile of the pilots and their background and which underwriter at which company and what other claims have come in just that week!

I think it is more critical in the Mu2 than others. I would rather see a pilot go solo in the Mu2 than fly with somebody that doesn't have specific recent and SFAR experience. The last thing you need to be doing is answering a bunch of questions which you barely know the answer to.

Must admit, a mentor pilot probably would have been helpful in the most recent Mu2 crash. And possibly the King Air in Wichita also..

Mitsubishi for first twin