To be fair - we sort of STARTED a prebuy.

Luckiest bad decision I ever made.

On the old piston planes I buy (and I think Mike's V falls in the same category) - I'm with him on saying the right buyer can skip the prebuy. You need to find the things that might turn the plane into beer cans, and everything else you live with as part of the cost of owning an old plane. You adjust your offer accordingly, and most sellers will give an oversized discount for the relief of not having a full prebuy hanging over their heads.

On a plane that's near new, or being marketed as "top of the line" - I'd do the prebuy and hammer the seller on every last thing found. Don't tell me it's perfect if it's not (and no plane is.)

I just got back and haven't read the whole mess, but I'll say that I used Chip's services and saved far more than the cost of his services. Not only did he save me more than his fee on the final negotiated price, the major savings came from NOT buying a few planes I would have bought on my own that would not have turned out as well.

I would rate myself as a fairly experienced buyer and seller of things other than turbine aircraft.

Your role? Your role is self promotion, nothing wrong with that as a BT sponsor- but you just defended big shop logic a few post back, enumerating your points

But so many of my statements are untrue and irrelevant- heck I own an airplane but I’ll still listen to a guy who doesn’t

Your role? Your role is self promotion, nothing wrong with that as a BT sponsor- but you just defended big shop logic a few post back, enumerating your points

But so many of my statements are untrue and irrelevant- heck I own an airplane but I’ll still listen to a guy who doesn’t

By sending them to Stevens? Hmm.

My role is to spread information that is useful to others. I don't make any money from this and I put a lot of time into it. I have no revenue stream I need to protect or hype.

I get a lot of joy when I can provide some guidance to somebody having a problem and it helps them solve it. Some people do Sudoku puzzles for fun, I do airplane squawks. The best ones are when I can provide an answer that saves someone a ton of money, or end an issue that has plagued them for years.

Mike C.

Chip

I think it’s hard for you to understand Mike’s perspective because it goes against your business model.

You guys are at opposite sides of the spectrum. A long conversation on here is not going to bridge that gap. Haha

Guys like Mike and I are trying to get the best value. That’s not your business model. You are not selling to guys like Mike and I.

Edit- to be clear I didn’t read all the back and forth. Just too long.

Mike

You still managed to hit it on the head pretty good…

Actually it doesn't go against my business model, Mike can make all the stink he wants, but all we're doing is finding off market airplanes for people like you and him.

And I do understand where Mike is coming from, when I sold airplanes for a dealer, we sold with the same mentality. So, I get it... I just think there's a better way.

No, we wouldn't have taken Mike on as a client, our values don't align and we wouldn't work well together.

If someone post something he disagrees with he addresses it, I do the same. I think your point is that there's no right or wrong, just different perspectives. That is very true.

By sending them to Stevens? Hmm.

My role is to spread information that is useful to others. I don't make any money from this and I put a lot of time into it. I have no revenue stream I need to protect or hype.

I get a lot of joy when I can provide some guidance to somebody having a problem and it helps them solve it. Some people do Sudoku puzzles for fun, I do airplane squawks. The best ones are when I can provide an answer that saves someone a ton of money, or end an issue that has plagued them for years.

Mike C.

To boil it down, potential jet owners need to know that you don't have to pay a bunch of overpriced experts and shops to get and fly a jet. You can do that if you want, to buy yourself some aura of sophistication, elitism, and luxury. In the end, they are just airplanes and respond extremely well to an involved owner if you want to own one for a lot less than the experts say.

Imagine what it would cost to own a 172 if you had to hire an expert to help you buy one and only maintained it at a factory service center. That describes some jet owner culture and those guys think that is all there is. But that's not true and you can own a jet for a lot less.

When people ask "what does it cost to fly a Citation?", you really can't answer that question without understanding how the owner is going to manage the plane. In Chip's world, it will be very expensive. In my world, it will not be. It really isn't that hard to do what I do, there is lots of community support out there.

Mike C.

Something that I think Chip mentioned, but has been lost in all the back and forth is, these "gold plated, big name" shops are exactly that, not only for their knowledge, but also for their liability coverage. How many "XYZ Small Shops" do you know that carry liability coverage in the tens of millions of dollars?

Quick example.....big shop, Hawker 850XP, had TWO issues. Punctured the pressure vessel with a drill(fairly easy patch job with TXT Engineering involvement), AND a punctured wing, top and bottom, when a pulley fell from the ceiling. That resulted in a new wing ASSEMBLY.

How many "XYZ Small Shops" would be able to make you whole with those issues?

That is what Chips clientele are paying for when they go to the shops he suggests.

Don't get me wrong......if I'm ever fortunate enough to have my own airplane, rather than flying OPP's, you can bet I'll be all up in the maintenance business, just like Mike. However, my risk of loss due to shop issues will be much smaller......since it won't be a 'jet elite'!!!!!

Convenience vs. sweat equity? Different choices for different wallets.

So then what are they paying their insurance company for? To me, if those scenarios happen, that's between my insurance company and whoever they want to subrogate against

Perhaps you could stretch your argument to cover loss of use, but that can be between an airplane owner and their respective insurer as well

How many customers ask their shop for a copy of their insurance coverages and policy limits? It's an interesting argument

Jason McCoy and his decision now:



Chip-

So then what are they paying their insurance company for? To me, if those scenarios happen, that's between my insurance company and whoever they want to subrogate against

Perhaps you could stretch your argument to cover loss of use, but that can be between an airplane owner and their respective insurer as well

How many customers ask their shop for a copy of their insurance coverages and policy limits? It's an interesting argument