When you operate them for money, you have crew, profit, overhead, etc. The airplane is the lesser cost, so buying new (or recent even) works out financially. They fly a lot more hours than the average owner operator, so a newer plane with 15% less fuel burn matters more than the cost of capital.

This is why some flight schools have new 172s and most owners are flying ones from the mid 1970s.

Mike C.

You equate "expensive" with "right" and imply "inexpensive" is "wrong". I should show my pictures of what Textron service centers have done to my plane. You will not think that is always true. Maybe your ecosystem of exposure isn't all there is to this planes.

One example:

That's RTV (silicone caulk) slathered over air lines that control the pressurization system in my plane. That part of the plane was last touched by Textron at some point since it has always been service center maintained since it was new. It obviously was an attempt to fix a leak in a very critical system, one that if it malfunctions can and has killed people.

I flagged this at the phase 1-4. Replacements parts from Textron, new line, new fitting, cost less than $20 total and took less than 1 man hour labor. Now it looks like this:

So the big expensive service center did a nasty job, probably charged 3+ an hours for it, and I had it fixed VERY cheaply and PROPERLY. All I did was order the parts out of the IPC, so it wasn't major effort on my part.

Expensive is not always better.

Multiply the above by 20 examples of a similar kind I have found on my airplane.

The reason phase 1-5 is so expensive for some folks is that they let small problem fester until they become big ones, plus they go to high end shops which rake them over the coals.

Mike C.

You equate "expensive" with "right" and imply "inexpensive" is "wrong". I should show my pictures of what Textron service centers have done to my plane. You will not think that is always true. Maybe your ecosystem of exposure isn't all there is to this planes.

One example:

That's RTV (silicone caulk) slathered over air lines that control the pressurization system in my plane. That part of the plane was last touched by Textron at some point since it has always been service center maintained since it was new. It obviously was an attempt to fix a leak in a very critical system, one that if it malfunctions can and has killed people.

I flagged this at the phase 1-4. Replacements parts from Textron, new line, new fitting, cost less than $20 total and took less than 1 man hour labor. Now it looks like this:

So the big expensive service center did a nasty job, probably charged 3+ an hours for it, and I had it fixed VERY cheaply and PROPERLY. All I did was order the parts out of the IPC, so it wasn't major effort on my part.

Expensive is not always better.

Multiply the above by 20 examples of a similar kind I have found on my airplane.

The reason phase 1-5 is so expensive for some folks is that they let small problem fester until they become big ones, plus they go to high end shops which rake them over the coals.

Mike C.

So, you are saying Textron did all of the maintenance, or at least all of the major inspections on your aircraft before you bought it? And that they used RTV to repair that broken fitting?

Did you take it to a Textron Service Center for Prepurchase? I assume not, but curious because if an airplane had always been maintained at Textron, you'd typically take it there for prebuy.

How do you deal with surface contamination? Do you deice a lot? If not how do you utilize your plane so much in conditions like that? If you do deice how much do you pay and how does it all workout? Thanks

Let me know if I'm wrong - but 135 operators have to do overhauls, right? 91 operators do not. As Mike said, just do the hot and move on.

One thing that is happening in the legacy jet world that is not happening with Meridians: the older jet engines are being flown with the expectation that they'll never be overhauled again. It quite possible that Mike's jet will never see an overhaul, or a different set of engines, for the rest of its life. He's doing what everyone else who has these engines is doing - run them till they're done. That's why there are no used ones left - anyone who has one is wringing the very last hours out of it.

Once the engines are toast and the airframe is 40+ years old, there won't be much of value left to part out. It's like the Commander 685 that can't get parted out - there's nobody left to buy the parts. At some point the very small fleet size will work against the owners. This isn't a Beech 18 or a DC-3.

In late 2020, there was no such ting as "prebuy". The best I could do was a shake down flight and engine borescopes. Maybe you remember that frenzy, it was like lions on a gazelle.

Further, no prebuy that lasted less than a week would catch this, they weren't going to rip the plane apart that far.

Lastly, a fix that takes 1 man hour and $20 in parts is NOT what a prebuy is for. I just want the big things found. In reality, that meant engine borescopes because everything else was unlikely to be an issue. I was, after all, going to rip out all the avionics and that's often a prebuy concern.

In the end, the plane got taken apart substantially at the avionics upgrade, and again at the phase 1-4. No serious issues were found. Both shops declared the plane to be reasonably healthy but with a number of little squawks, some of which indicated poor diligence from past mechanics.

The most frustrating thing were all the broken nut plates. It seems the service center employs folks who just drive the screws in and if they don't fit or jam up, no matter, just break the nutplate and forget about it. My standing orders are to replace any broken nutplate, to replace any screw with munged head, and so forth. I think we replaced about 50 nutplates, some of which were the wrong size per the parts book. I think we collected almost a pound of loose hardware in the belly, too.

The plane is in WAY better shape now than when I bought it. Lots of broken things are now fixed properly, some of which an average pilot might not have even noticed.

Mike C.

Depends.

Part 91 operators do not have to do overhauls. This includes things other than engines, BTW, too.

Part 135 operators have to follow their op spec. In general, op specs state engines should be overhauled in accordance with manufacturer recommendations. That is what mandates the engine overhauls. It is theoretically possible an op spec might not force overhauls, but I'm not aware of any such example.

But even then, the 135 operator can opt for a "TBO extension" STC. There are a number of vendors who provide this, an example:

https://skyway-mro.com/flex-program-ove ... -my-jt15d/

These STCs allow a part 135 operator to HSI and keep flying past TBO. They often include other provisions, like engine monitoring systems, oil sampling, etc.

I get offers from these companies trying to imply I need their STC to go past TBO, but part 91 does not.

What this means is that a large number of engines are flying past TBO, even the part 135 operators are doing it. It also means TBO interval is mostly a business decision by Pratt and not actually set by engine life.


I wouldn't say that necessarily. I analyzed my cycle life and it comes out pretty nicely to do one HSI past TBO, then overhaul, and the parts won't cycle out until that overhaul is at an end. This is a bit over 5000 hours left. At that point, the engine needs a number of parts like main fan, turbine wheels, etc, so it become uneconomic to go further.


I don't know, the V is such a valuable thing, to go 400+ knots and land in under 3000 ft, handle ice and snow, it may yet have a much longer life than you expect.

Mike C.

SC Johnson Wax bought it new in 1991 and the Milwaukee service center maintained it.

It was then sold to a NY construction company in 2012 and Stewart service center maintained it.

Then I bought it in 2020.


Can't prove that, but the records basically have no other shop entries other than Textron.


It is best NOT to use the shop that maintains the airplane for prebuy. They are going to miss the things they have been missing before, and they aren't going to find stuff that makes them look bad.

In any case, in the frenzy of late 2020, scheduling a prebuy with anybody was simply not going to happen. Every shop was booked for 6 months, and every seller wanted to dump planes without hassle. That's just the way it was.

Mike C.

I suspect two things: One, you won't be the owner at the point of the next overhaul. It's pretty far away. Two, the value of the airframe at that point will equal the value of the engines, as the CJ fleet will occupy the market position that your V has now. Your V will hold the market position that an early Lear currently holds. Run-out engines will have a value near zero.

Every airframe gets there at some point.

I have about 2170 hours (assuming an HSI to go past TBO). At 150 hours/year, that's 14 years, or 2037. I probably don't own the plane then as you said.

But I still like the idea it has value and someone could continue to fly it.

You never know, Pratt might wake one day and realize they should keep these planes flying by offering a lower cost overhaul path otherwise they will be pretty much out of the light business jet market entirely with FJ44s taking over. But that would make too much sense, require thinking long term, so I don't expect it from them.

Mike C.

Mike C.

That really is small airplane logic that has become folklore. "Don't take the airpalne to the mechanic that has been maintaining it" and I get it, we typically go to a different maintenance facility just because I don't want someone saying to my client "you should have gone somewhere else, everyone knows that!"

The fact is, when you're talking Textron, Stevens, West Star, Standard Aero, etc. it would be hard to get the same mechanic to look at the airplane if you asked for it!

To the point about making themselves look bad, that might happen with a small shop, but at a big shop they don't care. If it's wrong, they are going to write up the discrepancy.

You think I equate more expensive with better and I do... but that isn't why we use big shops, we use big shops because of the following;

1. They have INSURANCE. Think its a given? It isn't. Have your airplane at a small shop and it's damaged beyond repair, you might find out you have a big problem.

2. They have the manpower. It's important to have enough mechanics, avionics techs and engine guys to jump on an airplane and fully inspect it. Plus, have the manpower to make the repairs in days not weeks (or months).

3. They are 145 Repair Stations. This means the FAA says they are doing things right, not me. I have a lot of very good friends who have their own shops and are VERY good mechanics, but when it comes to prebuys I need a shop that has a name and is a repair station, so that the seller doesn't think they are getting scammed by "Chip's buddy".

4. They have the ability to stand behind their work. I have a situation right now with a service center that did a prebuy and gear overhaul on a Hawker for one of our clients, two years later and we've found some gear issues that were missed, the bill will be very large, probably $400k for the repairs alone, a small shop couldn't make that right if they wanted to.

I'm not saying a shop is better because they are bigger, the fact is we've had issues with all shops small and large. I'm thankful that I know where to go and where to avoid, but even at the shops that are good, things happen.

I didn't type all of this to bicker with Mike, I typed it because Beechtalk is a source of information for many and I want to be clear about how you should go about buying an airplane.

As always, my phone number is just to the left of this, if you have questions give me a call. I do what I do to protect airplane buyers, you don't have to hire us to get advice! I'd much rather donate some of my time to you, than have you make a mistake that cost you six figures.

I have about 2170 hours (assuming an HSI to go past TBO). At 150 hours/year, that's 14 years, or 2037. I probably don't own the plane then as you said.

But I still like the idea it has value and someone could continue to fly it.

You never know, Pratt might wake one day and realize they should keep these planes flying by offering a lower cost overhaul path otherwise they will be pretty much out of the light business jet market entirely with FJ44s taking over. But that would make too much sense, require thinking long term, so I don't expect it from them.

Mike C.

New V FJ44 thread viewtopic.php?f=49&t=217130