Got the status sheet on the plane.

They were overhauled at about 3600 hours, and then at 7200 hours where HSI only, so they are just past TBO slightly (~100 hours).

They will still be viable for an overhaul in 1700 hours with enough cycles left on the internal parts so it won't be too bad.

This is what I intend to do with my engines when the time comes, HSI and keep flying.

Mike C.

It will be faster to fix the engine on site than to find and install a rental engine.

Assuming the #4 bearing is really the issue.

Where is the plane? That may indicate which shop would be best for the job.

Mike C.

If it is a big enough emergency, like escaping the zombie apocalypse, with a long enough runway, it will fly on one engine.

(Not a serious suggestion...)

I think Boeing had some takeoff data for 747s on 3 engines for ferry purposes.

Mike C.

If it is a big enough emergency, like escaping the zombie apocalypse, with a long enough runway, it will fly on one engine.

(Not a serious suggestion...)

I think Boeing had some takeoff data for 747s on 3 engines for ferry purposes.

Mike C.

A guy goes into a forum, asking about a meridian, and he gets “beechtalked” into a Citation V.

I look at a used airplane like a used house, and a new airplane like a new car. Depreciation on new airplanes, plus capital cost, creates such an expensive hole you could easily jump a class up for the same money.

A new interior and paint is $150,000 at most and a new Garmin suite is $200,000-$300,000. The only other thing you get with a newer airplane is fuel efficiency and the ability to throw the keys at the service center, which I think is a terrible idea anyways. It's not very time consuming to call around and challenge charges, even if you aren't sourcing your own parts.

For an owner flown airplane, the extra fuel is probably only a small fraction of the cost difference. The JetStars and Sabres are all gone.

I was dropping my meridian off at the A&P for an upgrade and I wanted to burn off fuel from 300lbs or so down. It’s the only time I’ve sat and watched fuel flow out at El Paso. We were told to hold at one taxiway then next. I ended up not doing an approach and also curing my buddys desire to ever buy a TP as we burned 200lbs for an ultimately 10 min traffic pattern. We shut down with 120 lbs. He was funny watching doing the math.

But he had just spent $80k or so on a panel-capital costs….

Newer planes do not lend themselves to owner involvement as much.

There is less field experience outside the service center.

There is less availability of after market or used parts.

The OEMs have gradually locked down options for owners or independent shops to do work. Example, JT15D has many independent shops, PW535 has basically none. Newer stuff is more "captured" in a business sense so the customer has less freedom.

If you buy an M600, your ability to operate like I do with my V is severely limited.

So plane choice basically forces some "style" choices on the owner.


No one is "fully informed" before the jump, not even me after looking into this for years before doing it. At some point there is a leap of faith. I was scared to death of what the plane could do to me financially at first. Now, not nearly so much. This doesn't mean I am free of risk, just that as I solve each issue presented, my faith in being able to find workable and economically viable solutions increases. Ultimately, the "part it out" option exists if I am truly in dire straits, but that's really unlikely.

I'm not suggesting people go buy a V right now, they are priced way too high. Go buy a 501. Single pilot, inexpensive to get, slower, smaller, very little down side risk. Fly that for a few years and get your 500 hours turbine. Now you can think about getting a more reasonably priced V, or you can sell the 501 and down size to some turboprop if the fuel bills are killing you.

Mike C.

Oops, not true.

The status sheet shows impellers that will time out in about 500 cycles (same as landings). This is an expensive big part which must be replaced at that time, no options exist to go past it.

The engine has the original impellers (PN 3033682) which have 9000 cycle life. The engines have ~8500 cycles on them, thus only 500 left. That's maybe 3 years for a low use owner operator. Then the engine has to be basically torn all apart to replace the impellers.

Ironically, my engines have more total time on them, but that meant the 9000 cycle impellers got replaced with new 12,000 cycle impellers (PN 30340939) Now my impellers have 9,300 cycles left. So even though my engines are higher time, they actually have more residual value in them due to the cycle life left in the parts.

I understand why the HSI was done instead of an OH. No OH would have put back 500 cycle impellers, so the cost of doing them was prohibitive. Instead, do the HSI and run for ~600-700 hours, then do the OH or impeller replacement.

Brand new impellers are $250K each. That's only $21 per cycle per engine, not really a huge number, but it comes in one huge chunk and you are likely never going to use all those cycles yourself. Not sure what the used market is for them right now, suspect it is tighter than it was.

In some ways, buying a higher time airplane can cost you LESS if a previous owner had to do a big ticket life limited part before you bought it.

Mike C.

Maybe Mike C can teach me how to quote quotes but some comments below:

Call me skeptical that you can own and operate an old mid size biz jet for less than a tiny new single engine turboprop, but do enjoy your analysis. One big picture concept that I am not understanding is that if these old jets are so cheap to own and operate, how come the big operators buy new aircraft? I am sure it is complex.

The world is not a rational place. I've been preaching about these planes for 5+ years now. I was initially lambasted as an idiot. I think many here are starting to realize I wasn't hyperbolizing.

A comment on #4 bearing, we can replace one in about 4 hours, NOT a big deal unless you wobbled your shaft and trashed everything then it's a different story. Replacing impellers is about $40K at the shop; also not a big deal. That includes a decent used part.

If you're spending 100K on a 1-5 I assure you that you are getting gigged. $30-40K includes a decent profit margin and is fair without serious squawks.

I have done a lot of hot sections in the last few years, 10-55K, averaging 25K. Obviously, if your blades are trashed then expect more.

But, I will echo Chip, I haven't seen a used 5A in a few years, they are very rare.

I used ITI for an overhaul. I never thought they pulled any punches. I’ve used them for a lot of other depot level repairs. All these shops, including Pratt And Whitney and Standard Aero just send all this stuff out for overhaul (to the same vendors) and then put it back together. However, parts of got a lot more expensive than last year so maybe my $300,000 number is off basis.

I supervised probably 15 phase one through fives in last several years; I assure you there is no mystique about doing these inspections. It’s a general aviation level inspection and not rocket science that needs to be done by a Duncan or Weststar level shop. Most of the work is $20 an hour employee sort of stuff that you’re paying $125 an hour to do at these shops. There is absolutely no incentive to be efficient.

And of all these inspections, I have yet to find anything that was an imminent danger to the aircraft.

If you're going to a shop that has mechanics who will work for $20 an hour... that's a real problem. I pay the kids who work in my office more than that.

All I'm going to say, and then I'll drop it, is that I've been in aviation for over 20 years, every airplane you sell is a flying lawsuit waiting to happen, I may err on the side of extreme caution and getting things done right, but it comes from seeing just how ugly things can get.