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 Post subject: Re: Mitsubishi MU-2
PostPosted: 05 May 2024, 11:08 
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Joined: 12/19/09
Posts: 345
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Company: Premier Bone and Joint
Location: Wyoming
Aircraft: BE90,HUSK,MU-2
Username Protected wrote:
MU-2 Guys,

I am upgrading from a turbo aztec and had been considering a higher performance twin (think Cessna 340/421, Aerostar). My goal is to step-up speed, potentially load capabilities and dispatch reliability. My 80% mission will be 300-600 nm typically with 2-4 people 150 hours per year. From perusing threads I feel that an MU-2 is as efficient on a cost-per-mile basis as these other birds with somewhat more predictable reliability.


Couple questions:

1.)what are the major hiccups in maintenance? The gotchas ? Is it gear, windshields, pressurization, etc?

2.)stupid question here, but where is the baggage compartment on the short body?

3.) who do I call to help me find a good one?

Thank you,

Tommy


Not a lot of “Gotchas” in maintenance that you can’t see coming, but like any aircraft, there can be some. I have a -10 K model and when I bought it, the plane had a heated glass pilot’s side windshield and a plexiglas copilot’s windshield. The plexiglass cracked in half in the flight levels on my way home from inspection that included the glass (so you won’t necessarily see that coming on an inspection). We replaced the right side with heated glass and all has been well. The 7500 hour inspection is wings off, gear off, NDT testing and it’s pretty costly (mostly labor). Only one bolt failed NDT so not many parts to purchase. I had two Aerostars prior to the MU-2 and I never looked back. While the MU-2 might be slightly more expensive than the pressurized piston twins (mainly due to 100hr inspection requirement vs annual regardless of hours on the piston twins) the DOC was comparable if not slightly better for the MU-2. But the main feature of the MU-2 is that it generally operates from inspection to inspection with nary a squawk and virtually never a critical failure (my windshield crack was the only one in 8 years other than a couple flat tires). It also has twice the horsepower and excellent performance in icing, contaminated runways and deep snow. 24” prop clearance has allowed operations on unplowed taxiways and runways that other planes (like my hangar neighbor’s TBM 850) couldn’t accommodate.

The Baggage compartments are very large. The heated/pressurized one behind the door on left side is the full width of the plane. The unpressurized one on the right side has a pretty small door but is very tall and can fit long pieces of luggage standing upright.

Agree on Mike Laver from Air 1st. That’s where I bought mine. He said it was squawk-free and he was correct. Based on his reputation, I didn’t even do a pre-purchase inspection and was not disappointed. He will stand by the planes he sells.

_________________
Thomas


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 Post subject: Re: Mitsubishi MU-2
PostPosted: 10 May 2024, 07:50 
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Joined: 12/17/17
Posts: 35
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Company: Aqua-tots
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Username Protected wrote:
Call Mike Laver at Air1st

Baggage compartment is behind cabin door and another unpressurized on opposite side. Holds a surprising amount between them.


Everything Anthony said.
Michael Farmer just listed his Solitaire. Fairly well sorted.

Tj

Where is Michael Famer's Solitaire listed?

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 Post subject: Re: Mitsubishi MU-2
PostPosted: 10 May 2024, 08:29 
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Joined: 12/17/17
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Company: Aqua-tots
Aircraft: Pa-27 Turbo
Username Protected wrote:
MU-2 Guys,

Not a lot of “Gotchas” in maintenance that you can’t see coming, but like any aircraft, there can be some. I have a -10 K model and when I bought it, the plane had a heated glass pilot’s side windshield and a plexiglas copilot’s windshield. The plexiglass cracked in half in the flight levels on my way home from inspection that included the glass (so you won’t necessarily see that coming on an inspection). We replaced the right side with heated glass and all has been well. The 7500 hour inspection is wings off, gear off, NDT testing and it’s pretty costly (mostly labor). Only one bolt failed NDT so not many parts to purchase. I had two Aerostars prior to the MU-2 and I never looked back. While the MU-2 might be slightly more expensive than the pressurized piston twins (mainly due to 100hr inspection requirement vs annual regardless of hours on the piston twins) the DOC was comparable if not slightly better for the MU-2. But the main feature of the MU-2 is that it generally operates from inspection to inspection with nary a squawk and virtually never a critical failure (my windshield crack was the only one in 8 years other than a couple flat tires). It also has twice the horsepower and excellent performance in icing, contaminated runways and deep snow. 24” prop clearance has allowed operations on unplowed taxiways and runways that other planes (like my hangar neighbor’s TBM 850) couldn’t accommodate.

The Baggage compartments are very large. The heated/pressurized one behind the door on left side is the full width of the plane. The unpressurized one on the right side has a pretty small door but is very tall and can fit long pieces of luggage standing upright.

Agree on Mike Laver from Air 1st. That’s where I bought mine. He said it was squawk-free and he was correct. Based on his reputation, I didn’t even do a pre-purchase inspection and was not disappointed. He will stand by the planes he sells.

This is Great.

With regards to scheduled maintenance intervals, how should I expect those to fall on 12 month calendar use over 100 hours (maybe 150ish)?

100 hour inspection at each 100 hour interval?

Engines:
Hot section every 1800 hours?
-10 are the simplest and therefore least expensive?
-1/-5/-6 are more expensive to hot section
any cost estimates here on -10 vs the others?

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 Post subject: Re: Mitsubishi MU-2
PostPosted: 10 May 2024, 10:07 
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Joined: 06/18/15
Posts: 1059
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Location: Alaska/Idaho
Aircraft: Helio Courier, MU2
Yes 100hr/1yr inspections are every 100hrs or 1 yr whichever is sooner. -10 is not “simpler” but has proven to be cheaper at hot section inspections

The operator chooses either the 5000TBO program or the 5400TBO program at overhaul. Once selected it can’t be changed from one to the other. The 5400TBO program is a HSI at 1800hrs and a HSI and a gearbox inspection at 3600hrs. If the engine qualifies (most do), the TBO is extended another 1800hrs to 5400hrs. The 5000TBO program is a HSI at 2500hr. The 5000hr program has better economics and I haven’t heard of anyone choosing the 5400TBO program since the 5000TBO program became available.

HSI cost is a dependent on a host of variables. It could be just an inspection and new gaskets or (unlikely) everything could be junk and need to be replaced. There are always options that can increase the cost. There is a new combustor can which produces less carbon and will extend the life of the T wheels and stators which was about $18,000 last I heard

Economically, it really makes sense to buy the later airplanes. The cost of major parts like windshields is the same and the earlier airplanes will always be worth less. Putting $100k in parts into a $300k older airplane won’t add as much value as putting them onto a $800k airplane


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 Post subject: Re: Mitsubishi MU-2
PostPosted: 10 May 2024, 11:00 
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Username Protected wrote:
HSI cost is a dependent on a host of variables. It could be just an inspection and new gaskets or (unlikely) everything could be junk and need to be replaced. There are always options that can increase the cost. There is a new combustor can which produces less carbon and will extend the life of the T wheels and stators which was about $18,000 last I heard


The C-441 that I managed up until we sold it a few months ago had a SB that applied to only a few -10 engines. My notes say First Stage Wheel, SB 72-2303. The new cost of that wheel was $150k+ and we needed two. The SB were mandatory immediately for 135 aircraft, and since we were part 91 based on discussions with our engine shop we elected to not do the change. we had ~13,000 cycles left. We were quoted around $150k IIRC for R&R of both with a couple used wheels.

That ended my realistic interest in owning a turbine airplane.


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 Post subject: Re: Mitsubishi MU-2
PostPosted: 10 May 2024, 11:35 
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Username Protected wrote:

That ended my realistic interest in owning a turbine airplane.


Yeah its an attention getter isn't it? Maybe you could have done that work for half the quoted price with some legwork but still. Big numbers.

The surprises we had included a locked up ACM turbine which was a $25k job (12 years ago money), and a disintegrated -1 Torque Sensor that was $25k (11 years ago money).

On these more complex airplanes it isn't like you can just remove the heater or air conditioning because it doesn't work and keep flying like you might in a C340 or something. They go hard down and $100k is not unrealistic for a return to service.

It is a magic carpet though, that's for sure.

Tj

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 Post subject: Re: Mitsubishi MU-2
PostPosted: 10 May 2024, 12:12 
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Aircraft: 1969 Bonanza V35A
Last year, the C-441 was around $65k in maintenance. $25k was an overhauled ACM, $6k was a monopole sensor and troubleshooting, and $35k in scheduled inspections. The remainder was miscellaneous ICA's, squawks, etc. That was the heavy year on inspections. The previous year was under $10k for maintenance IIRC.

We flew it 100-130 hours per year.

I'd love a turbine airplane, but the surprises hurt more. I was surprised with a $70k engine on my 414 a couple years ago. Right now, I'm $30k into boots and hope that's all before I pick t up next week. Boots were not a surprise. Both of those were pretty much extremes for a piston airplane....


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 Post subject: Re: Mitsubishi MU-2
PostPosted: 10 May 2024, 13:03 
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Location: Alaska/Idaho
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I have about 1600hrs of flight time in the three MU2s that I have owned. I have never had a big surprise Maitenance event. The biggest item has been windshields from normal delamination which is visible years in advance of needing replacement.


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 Post subject: Re: Mitsubishi MU-2
PostPosted: 10 May 2024, 21:50 
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Joined: 03/14/15
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Aircraft: Piper Cheyenne II
With apologies if this is covered extensively elsewhere...

What do all the MU-2 owners plan to do as the Bendix M4D ages out (which I think is coming sooner than later)? If there was a certified replacement autopilot it would he a game changer. Most of the MU-2's I have ogled over have that autopilot.


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 Post subject: Re: Mitsubishi MU-2
PostPosted: 11 May 2024, 01:03 
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I think it’s safe to say the Bendix APs have “aged” out already. Nothing new about them but they are serviceable.

There are still vendors that can completely go through them.

If the autopilot truly became unsupported, I have a hunch Mitsubishi would step in somehow.

I’m still hopeful Garmin and Mitsubishi can make up and get the GFC600 released


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 Post subject: Re: Mitsubishi MU-2
PostPosted: 11 May 2024, 10:07 
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Username Protected wrote:
I think it’s safe to say the Bendix APs have “aged” out already. Nothing new about them but they are serviceable.

There are still vendors that can completely go through them.

If the autopilot truly became unsupported, I have a hunch Mitsubishi would step in somehow.

I’m still hopeful Garmin and Mitsubishi can make up and get the GFC600 released


I am very curious to see what happens with a few fleets that haven't risen to the level of commercial viability for autopilot STC's. I would have to bet that as the legacy autopilots age out for parts availability small fleets of otherwise totally viable aircraft would see owners groups / support organization like Mitsubishi, etc., pool enough money to pay for the STC. I hear the magic number is 100 committed units to justify the work of doing the STC for autopilot manufacturers.

Having support from a manufacturer like Mitsubishi is a pretty big deal for legacy airplanes... I don't think even Beech really wants to have their older airplanes still in service.


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 Post subject: Re: Mitsubishi MU-2
PostPosted: 12 Jul 2024, 21:04 
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Will any MU-2s make it to Oshkosh? I am eager to sit in one with my wife and we will be out there this year.

Tommy


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 Post subject: Re: Mitsubishi MU-2
PostPosted: 13 Jul 2024, 01:06 
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Username Protected wrote:
I’m still hopeful Garmin and Mitsubishi can make up and get the GFC600 released

After teasing for years, Garmin said they would not be bringing the GFC 600 to the MU2.

This was very disappointing. I suspect they won't change their minds in the future.

The M4D can be maintained, there are folks who can do it, but it is getting old and new digital autopilot would be a major win.

The SPZ 500 (later models) is also getting old, too. I yearn for the day I can remove the SPZ 500 from my Citation and replace it with a digital autopilot. There are two projects to do so, STEC 5000 and the Garmin GFC 600.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Mitsubishi MU-2
PostPosted: 13 Jul 2024, 11:39 
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Joined: 10/05/09
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Location: Portland, Oregon
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FWIW, the M4D, or M4C in my case work just fine. You can add roll steering multiple ways. They will fly GPS approaches just fine. Yeah, they don't let you never touch them after programming your GPS like newer autopilots, but we are PILOTS! We should fly the plane. I have to be more involved with my flight with my older autopilot, so what? I don't think that is a bad thing. For what I suspect a new autopilot would cost I can do an awful lot of repairs on my old one. It didn't work when I bought my plane, but support and parts were available and it has worked just fine after we got everything up to snuff. What is wrong with actually being involved in flying the plane??

Jeff Axel
N228WP


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 Post subject: Re: Mitsubishi MU-2
PostPosted: 13 Jul 2024, 17:49 
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Joined: 03/14/15
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Aircraft: Piper Cheyenne II
I think the issue is not where the puck is, it is where it's going. M4D's are serviceable now, but what about 5 years down the road? 10 years? Parts are starting to get scarce, many of them consist of materials that is getting old and brittle.
What is the critical mass of money / # of owners that could simply self-fund an STC? maybe with the STEC-3100?


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