The vast majority of owners don’t have much of a choice.

Ok, you are right, there is always a choice - I could not buy the plane and its associated engine plan.

A real choice would be for Williams to allow the choice of taking engines off program, with realistic support for engine shops and overhauls out of pocket. Then you would see how many people truly “accept” the program.

Ok, you are right, there is always a choice - I could not buy the plane and its associated engine plan.

A real choice would be for Williams to allow the choice of taking engines off program, with realistic support for engine shops and overhauls out of pocket. Then you would see how many people truly “accept” the program.

Actually it’s probably more of an accounting and operational thing. Part 135 must overhaul, so they can’t extend TBOs. That’s the operational part. The accounting part is it allows companies to expense more of the flying as cash flow occurs.

The benevolence is eroding with each change in contract terms.

As the people and conditions change in the Williams organization, the benevolence will evaporate.


They do, but not being on the program was practical for them, it isn't for Williams.

If there were independent shops who can HSI and OH FJ44s, then operators would have a choice, but they do not.

Mike C.

Except why in the world would WI EVER make that choice? The guys at WI are great businessmen. That’s why they’re in this position. I guarantee if Pratt could get the cat they let out decades ago back into the bag, they would. But they can’t.

Since this has turned into a bit of an engine program thread I figured I would share some experience on the large cabin biz jet segment. My dad retired last year off running privately owned Gulfstreams (135 certs, but also flown 91 for the owners). These are Rolls-Royce Tays and BR710 variants.

Owners bought them new. Elected to not go onto programs finding them not to be a good value and they could stomach a surprise. A couple years ago overhauled two engines at about a 1 million per, done by Dallas Airmotive.

So at least in that world programs certainly aren’t tantamount to compulsory. I’m under no disillusion that they aren’t eye-wateringly expensive in any direction, but there’s practical freedom to choose.

Actually it’s probably more of an accounting and operational thing. Part 135 must overhaul, so they can’t extend TBOs. That’s the operational part. The accounting part is it allows companies to expense more of the flying as cash flow occurs.

That's nonsense.

Any "secrets" inside the engine can't remain so when they are out in the wild. Any half twit engine engineer can take them apart and learn all there is to know. Releasing an overhaul manual teaches you NOTHING about the design secrets in any case.

The above was an excuse to cover their purely business decision to retain full control over major engine work.


Why is the OH costing $1M? Because the same folks who set the program price set the overhaul price.

Duh.

Williams makes sure the "commercial" (off program) HSI and OH cost MORE than the program payments. They say 30% more, actually. This is the punishment for not being on the program.

The OEM price for the engine outright is about what they charge for an HSI and OH. Think about what a pair of FJ44-1 on an M2 must cost if the airplane is $5M list price. Textron has to build that for $3M or less to make any money on it, so what does that mean about what each engine costs NEW?


The PW500 series is a tweaked up JT15D, really very similar engines. The reason they cost more is that Pratt changed the rules of engagement to be more like Williams. They leveraged the regulatory rules to generate more revenue for themselves.

The more fearful they can make the engine work look, the more that fear will drive people to programs.


I think that is wrong because the same entity controls both ends of that argument.

For a JT15D, if you send it to Pratt, it will be close to $1M overhaul. If you send it to ITI, closer to $400K. So if the game isn't being artificially forced, the costs do change with who does it.


That is completely wrong for JT15D.

I get the feeling you generally advise your customers to be on programs and thus any hint they might not be the right choice could bring into question your advice. It is easy to spend other people's money, isn't it?

When you add up the true total cost of programs, it is WAY higher than the sum of the payments. If you put the money into any sort of basic investment instead of the engine program, you will end up with a vastly larger sum than your payments total at the end.

Further, engine programs do cause increased costs along the way in higher insurance premiums for a higher hull value (you are ironically insuring a value that isn't the airplane itself, but the engine payments), and also higher taxes for a higher hull value.

People who fly TPE331 and JT15D engines have a choice, they can be on the program, but they can also go without. In those cases, engine programs are rare.

Mike C.

That's the opposite of benevolence.

It would not surprise me if Williams elects NOT to renew TAP for any engine over 30 years old, or over 10,000 hours, or any such limit. That makes great business sense.

It would remove their obligation to overhaul really old engines at their cost. Now those folks have to overhaul at the "commercial" rate, much higher, and any defects, corrosion, etc, that is found is extra charge backs to the customer.

It would encourage the scrapping of older lower value airframes. This means more demand for newer airframes and more new engine sales, and a new program revenue stream.

Those who paid into the program without getting any major engine event at the end have lost their program value.

You can say Williams will never do this, but it is COMPLETELY within their power to do this as they wish. There is no contractual obligation on their part to extend your contract past the 5 year term.

Williams has the power to make your FJ44 equipped airplane junk any time they want. There is no ability, whatsoever, for anybody to establish a means to do major engine work on FJ44 outside Williams. The manuals simply do not exist in the wild, and without that, no one can do airworthy work on the engines.

This is unlike JT15D where there are independent shops, PMA parts, used parts, and the manuals to do any major engine work even if Pratt disowns it.

Mike C.

That is interesting about the Williams business model. Seems ingenuous, but not sure I would want a Williams powered aircraft. Kind of see how Cirrus took advantage of that. They have the Williams engine, control most of the type and recurrent training, as well as avionics, databases, communications, parts and labor. Not to mention sales. I really need to find me a business model with mandated vertically integrated recurring revenue

Just need right to repair pass and all that will change! It happened in agro, could happen here too.

Not being on programs only wins at the end of your ownership if you’re up financially. How do you know what will happen to your engines on tomorrow’s flight? I don’t have a crystal ball, but I don’t worry about the financial impact of that. Will I pay more in the long run? All I know is what it costs me now.

Chip-

We already have it for aviation. FAR 21.50 requires ICA docs for any certified products be made available to the owner and maintainers.

"(b) The holder of a design approval, including either a type certificate or supplemental type certificate for an aircraft, aircraft engine, or propeller for which application was made after January 28, 1981, must furnish at least one set of complete Instructions for Continued Airworthiness to the owner of each type aircraft, aircraft engine, or propeller upon its delivery, or upon issuance of the first standard airworthiness certificate for the affected aircraft, whichever occurs later. The Instructions for Continued Airworthiness must be prepared in accordance with §§ 23.1529, 25.1529, 25.1729, 27.1529, 29.1529, 31.82, 33.4, 35.4, or part 26 of this subchapter, or as specified in the applicable airworthiness criteria for special classes of aircraft defined in § 21.17(b), as applicable."

FAR 33.3 shows all the sections of the ICA manuals required, including overhaul.

It doesn't say it needs to be provided for free, and sometimes mfrs require special tooling that makes it uneconomical for a 3rd party to do an overhaul.

As always, too much to bother responding to.

I give all of my clients and anyone who ask the same advice, if the fleet is on the program, you should be as well. If the fleet isn’t it becomes a math problem, but you don’t typically get the value back out of the program when you go to sell the aircraft, the exception of course being when it’s close to TBO.

Several years ago we bought a 2001 King Air 350 on all programs, including, believe it or not ProProp, yep. The airplane had 2600TT and we might have paid $50k more for it than had it not been on an engine program, now my client is nearing overhaul and he’ll either get two Pratt overhauls or apply it to a -67 upgrade. He has paid in less than $400k and his return will be around a million.

Would I pay extra for a turboprop with a mid time engine on a program… NO!

I think Mike’s issue may in fact be pride and airplane envy, I know he’s an engineer and thinks like an engineer, but he’s too passionate about putting down all aircraft that are not his. The fact is he’s rare and the rest of the world is out there buying and flying nice airplanes and paying the programs involved, they aren’t sitting around on Beechtalk complaining about people who are off program.

I do this to educate buyers, why do you do it Mike? It’s not your business, you obviously have a company to run, why invest so much time gripping about what other people decide to invest their money in? They don’t care what you do… why do you care if they buy an SF50 or a CJ3?

So any way how much it cost to fill up a V? Say you’re going to Destin Florida.