With all due respect Mike this couldn't be further from reality. Consumers can expect premiums in the mid teens to mid 20's depending on prior experience level. That premium range you suggest would have been valid back when Eclipse was trying to certify their aircraft (based on Cirrus Jet hull being $2m ish versus Eclipse $1m ish at that time). I do remember insuring some early Eclipses and those low time pilot transitions were seeing insurance in the upper 20's to 30k range depending on prior experience (that on a $1m ish hull value).

My firm has several of the first 10 Cirrus jet deliveries as customers so I speak from experience. I also have insured 4 HondaJets to date and those premiums are in the very low teens to upper teens/low 20's depending on owner/flown versus pro/flown on a $5m hull value give or take (and prior experience of the pilot). That is a completely NEW aircraft and completely new aircraft manufacturer. I have not insured a low time piston pilot yet transitioning into a HondaJet but would guess the premium will still be in the 20k range (mid to upper).

Cirrus has over 6500 units in circulation and has developed a fantastic transition training program down in TN (several from my firm have spent a considerable amount of time there already getting a first hand look). This aircraft platform does not qualify - at least in terms of underwriting companies - as an 'unknown'. Textron, Eclipse and Embraer have paved the way for owner/flown jet risks over the last 10 years. The Cirrus jet will benefit from that aspect and also the diligence they have put into the training center and type rating program down in TN. I look forward to insuring many of these aircraft over the coming years!

I'm not suggesting Mike quit posting. I don't care.

But I would like to hear:

"You're right, I'm wrong"
"You're smart, I'm stupid"
"You're good looking, I'm not so attractive"
etc.

The prototypical customer that Cirrus has targeted is an SR2x pilot transitioning to the SF50 with little to no twin, turbine, or jet time. How many of your customers fit that profile?

I would find it amazing that such a customer would get hull and liability insurance for under 1% for an entirely new category of aircraft such as a single engine jet.

But the insurance industry has never been entirely logical, either.

At the 1% rate, taking out profit and overheads, the underwriters have basically said they expect only one hull loss in 200 airframes per year (not counting liability payouts). That seems like a bad bet to me.


Yes, but those aircraft fits the general risk model of jets, even owner flown jets, established by CJs, Mustang, Phenoms, Premiers, for a twin jet. Engine failures don't result in a hull loss, with the SF50, it will almost always be a hull loss, further assured by having a chute. Indeed, the preferred out taught by the company when something goes wrong is to pull the chute.


Then nothing qualifies as "unknown". First jet with chute, first single jet, first jet by Cirrus, first jet limited to turboprop altitudes, etc.

The insurance is not just the pilot, but there is a risk connected with the airplane itself and its potential flaws and weaknesses yet to be discovered.

Mike C.

I find it amazing that you're still he trying to argue that they will never sell any. It smacks of a futile protest at the electoral college.

I said that as much as you said the Earth is flat.

I keep saying the concept is flawed. The dream is beautiful and they clearly have sold that, and then they prevented as much reality from leaking out as they could.

Mike C.

The concept is to make a relatively inexpensive jet that will eat into the SETP buyer pool. Nothing flawed whatsoever.

anyone seen the Pilatus.......wicked good airplane.......may make as much sense as these jets you know

Cirrus delivered their first jet last week. They claim to have 600 orders (and 600 deposits at $100,000).

The Tennessee Cirrus hangars to house the training/delivery/maintenance/repair facilities are either complete, or under construction.

These people are serious about selling airplanes. Any other company matching them? 'Don't think so.

To make the PC12 perform as poorly, we'd have to cut its range in half and its payload by 2/3rds.

The SF50 has a slight speed advantage which would make it faster by a few minutes, but only if it doesn't have to make a fuel stop.

Mike C.

Recently visited March AFB museum and saw the SR71 in person.

The vision and enthusiasm involved in building that aircraft likely was only exceeded by sending a man to the moon. How the era that spawned the SR71, Lears, Sabreliners, Falcons could be bookended by the slowest and poorest performing jet ever built (not to mention conceived) leaves me wondering about a lot of things.

The Volkswagen of the sky it might be. The "metropolitan" man's airplane. While it may be an economic success it advances aviation not a yard. And the SJ30 sits on the sidelines.

In the company of men who made every conceivable advancement in aviation the SF50 would be considered an unforgivable mistake. It is like a participation trophy.

I guess it depends on how you perceive the advancement of aviation. Which aircraft did more, the Concorde or the 737? One pushed the limits of design while the other actually made money and made jet travel so affordable that it became available to hundreds of millions more than ever before. I'm not saying that the SF50 has achieved anything like the status of either of those iconic aircraft, but an airplane doesn't have to be really good at anything to be successful. Maybe it will turn out to be the 172 of jets...excelling at nothing but making more money than anything else in its category.

Yet youl'll still find the mooniacs who can't understand why those planes were successful when the per passenger mile fuel cost is so much higher than in a retract.

I just wish Cirrus had made the jet fixed gear to really cause people to lose their minds.

Participation trophy, I love it. I never thought of it in those term, but, you hit the nail on the head. Your post immediately painted a picture in my head of of a family of five flying an SF50 with bicycle helmets on. In my book, priceless.

You guys are weird about what's an advancement...

Stick a JetA burning piston engine on a Cessna, Bonanza, Piper and its praised for advancement... Stick a jet engine on the same (throw in a new airframe, seating arrangement, and state of the art avionics, oh and a parachute) and it's the slowest, stupidest thing you've ever evaluated. Sounds like the same stones that were thrown at the Pilatus - and look how that turned out.

Keep in mind this is Version 1.0 Cirrus Jet - I can't wonder what else is on the drawing board?....they have a proven track record of innovation. Once again I believe they understand their target market much better than most of us.

I wish them much success - GA needs it.

Peace,
Don

I just picked up my new 2016 SR22T in December at Cirrus's Knoxville location. Max is right. These guys have it figured out and if all you're interested in is the numbers, you can find solutions that are better in one way or the other. But you will never find a manufacturer that does a better job of selling what people WANT. Go to OSH and look around. The Cirrus tent is a beehive of activity. Get your VIP pass and go into their air conditioned lounge and it's like a club at midnight, stuffed full of owners and buyers sitting around talking about their Cirrus. Now that they are delivering the jet, I can't wait to see the atmosphere this year.

Then, step out of the Cirrus tent and head over to Beech/Cessna or Piper...a few people nosing around, most of the sales people talking to each other. Their tents are mausoleums in comparison. I'll never forget going over to Piper and asking to look inside a Mirage...they had them locked up..better to sell them that way you know. So I crawl in the crappy model that had there and after I worked out the cramps in my back getting into the pilot seat, I left and swore I'd never buy one of their products again (I used to own a Dakota).

Bottom line is that Cirrus is kicking everyone else's asses. Anyone want to bet they will fail at selling the jet? Not me!