Interesting that Mikes perception and facts are being attacked. You may not like what he says but he is right on this.

I have not owned a Meridian or M600 but did have a Malibu and I can tell you maintenance can be expensive on M class.

far all my 501 maintenance it has been in line with what my Meridian was except for one damage which had me buying a $10K hinge for the door. So in that case the repair on the Jet was more than M class. That being said I bought new because I had a revenue flight later that week. I could have bought used and got a complete door for less than half the new hinge cost. There are a lot of legacy citation parts out there. Oh but i ended up doing an insurance claim on the door so it didn't cost me much. Mostly because the damage was done by a dry lease guy.

Overall the legacy Citation has a lot of available parts and relatively easy to maintain. Again yes it's more than a M-class in some ways but worth it.

Like Mike C I can not afford a new M600. The Cap cost would kill me. But even if I could afford a M600 It cant do my missions with my family and payload. And certainly is not as safe or comfortable as the jet.

Crazy how these conversations go on and on. It's like single vs twin argument. LOL

But fact is if you can afford a M600 you can afford to fly a legacy citation. Mike did a great job of laying out the cost comparison. If you are worried about engine issues get one on program like I did.

Mike

Not attacking at all, just pointing out the things he is leaving out.

The problem with the forums is that someone reads this, goes and buys a V without realizing what they’re getting into, and has a really bad experience.

You can certainly spend $250k on a phase 1-5 for a Citation V, I’ve seen the bills. Sure, you can poor boy a Citation, source used parts, I’m a fan! I’ve done it. It works. BUT… it isn’t for everyone.

If you’re the average owner, you’re much better off buying something you can drop of at a service center.

I think this indicates what kind of shops you use, not the true cost.

My phase 1-4 base price was $9K and was done for about $14K total. We did NOT skip anything in the inspection task list. I personally verified it all.


New windshield from Textron is $7573. 15 in stock. RH is same price, also in stock.

I didn't check Perkins who also makes Citation windshields, they may be cheaper.

BTW, this is quite a bit less than an MU2 windshield, probably because there is competition. The Citation ecosystem is extensive and leads to improved prices, particularly on normal wear items like a windshield. My windshields were new in 2012, so they are in good shape.

I'll also wager it is cheaper than the M600 windshield, but that's just a guess.

The windshield is 45 lbs! Really thick! Withstands 9 PSI cabin diff and hitting birds.

Mike C.

Again with Cap cost, you have to have the money or access to it, but assuming you’re going to maintain the airplane at a service center and do overhauls as recommended, I can make a real strong argument that a CJ3 is more affordable than a Citation V, based on lower fuel consumption and maintenance cost.

I think this indicates what kind of shops you use, not the true cost.

My phase 1-4 base price was $9K and was done for about $14K total. We did NOT skip anything in the inspection task list. I personally verified it all.


New windshield from Textron is $7573. 15 in stock. RH is same price, also in stock.

I didn't check Perkins who also makes Citation windshields, they may be cheaper.

BTW, this is quite a bit less than an MU2 windshield, probably because there is competition. The Citation ecosystem is extensive and leads to improved prices, particularly on normal wear items like a windshield. My windshields were new in 2012, so they are in good shape.

I'll also wager it is cheaper than the M600 windshield, but that's just a guess.

The windshield is 45 lbs! Really thick! Withstands 9 PSI cabin diff and hitting birds.

Mike C.

The average 172 or 182 owner better not do that.

Same logic applies to a legacy Citation.

There is an immense field of experience on these planes outside the service center. I basically have almost as much choice as the 172 owner when it comes to who can service my plane.

Mike C.

I would say "challenged" and not "attacked" - just as Mike C does. He challenges people, gets them away from the "common knowledge," and says "You have to look at the numbers" - and then he presents the numbers. It's fair to challenge him and say "Are those *all* the numbers? Are they coming from similar situations on both sides?"

One concern I have is that generally speaking, Mike is comparing the cost of heavily owner-involved maintenance with the style of throwing the keys and checkbook at a service center. That's not a fair comparison. One owner has one style, and that style should be compared to both planes for *that* owner.

As you know, the jump up to a 501 is a jump I'm seriously considering. I just want to make sure I'm fully informed. If I don't do it, it will probably have more to do with my concern over the next 5 years economically that any particular issue with the plane. Like you, I can make it work if I get a dry lease partner. I feel comfortable with the state of my own business and where the next 5 years will go. But what about the unknown partner? What happens to me when *his* business fails and he drops the lease? I don't have a deep pool of partners to pull from.

Mike, that screenshot shows a 30% discount. How does one get that discount?

The average 172 or 182 owner better not do that.

Same logic applies to a legacy Citation.

There is an immense field of experience on these planes outside the service center. I basically have almost as much choice as the 172 owner when it comes to who can service my plane.

Mike C.

Market price for a decent CJ3 is about $6M right now.

At a cost of money of 6%, that's $360,000 in capital cost per year.

There's no fracking way that CJ3 is cheaper than my V for my usage profile of 100 to 150 hours/year. The cost of money greatly exceeds my entire budget, maybe double!

If/when this current used aircraft market bubble bursts, that CJ3 might end up losing $2M in value in a few months, which is what it was worth in 2019. That's more than my entire plane is worth.

On maintenance, the CJ3 doesn't get extend inspection intervals like I do, so it might not actually be so much cheaper. My plane was service center maintained until I bought it, BTW. I have a pretty extensive collection of "WTF?" things I found they had done to my plane that I have fixed.

The CJ3 only burns about 15% less fuel per mile than I do. The V really isn't as fuel hungry as people make it out to be. I'm also a bit faster.

Mike C.

Mike, that screenshot shows a 30% discount. How does one get that discount?

Being an owner and registering with Textron.

I did nothing special.

Discount varies with part, some are 50%, some are 0%. Textron's prices on commodity items (tires, batteries, filters, etc) are often the best I can find. On pricey proprietary things, it can be very expensive, of course.

Mike C.

Market price for a decent CJ3 is about $6M right now.

At a cost of money of 6%, that's $360,000 in capital cost per year.

There's no fracking way that CJ3 is cheaper than my V for my usage profile of 100 to 150 hours/year. The cost of money greatly exceeds my entire budget, maybe double!

If/when this current used aircraft market bubble bursts, that CJ3 might end up losing $2M in value in a few months, which is what it was worth in 2019. That's more than my entire plane is worth.

On maintenance, the CJ3 doesn't get extend inspection intervals like I do, so it might not actually be so much cheaper. My plane was service center maintained until I bought it, BTW. I have a pretty extensive collection of "WTF?" things I found they had done to my plane that I have fixed.

The CJ3 only burns about 15% less fuel per mile than I do. The V really isn't as fuel hungry as people make it out to be. I'm also a bit faster.

Mike C.

No, its my account. I believe every owner can get what I get based on what folks on CJP say.

Mike C.

No, its my account. I believe every owner can get what I get based on what folks on CJP say.

Mike C.