BeechTalk - BT

Username Protected · **Posted:** 18 Apr 2015, 18:22

I could get used to this!

It was quiet, smooth, fast, and easy to fly. Loved it.

Congrats guys. Great airplanes.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 18 Apr 2015, 19:42

Naw...don't quit posting. I just think asking an examinee "do you want to terminate the check ride" is a ridiculous statement. If you did desire termination YOU should broach the topic not him. I believe his roll is binary. Continue or terminate. Giving you the option makes no sense from the standpoint of it F's with your mind. My examiner didn't like my oral. Bottom 20% is my guess. Partly it was the guy who taught me was teaching the initial for the first time and was all over the map. The DPE tool about 30 minutes to decide. I suggested he flip a coin (sarcastically). No is a much better answer than maybe...unless your 5 years old when maybe means yes. WTF. So I see similar bad methodology taking place in this scenario.

You executed a stall recover as you had been taught. He had a different methodology in mind. Makes you do it again. That is really between the DPE and the instructor. I know my instructor and my DPE had a SERIOUS come to jesus after I passed trying to figure out how they could get on the same page.

It will be a nice chapter for the book...meantime...it's over....u got your rating. Now go fly with guys who fly these things daily and learn how it is really done.

Example....find me a pro pilot who says he always samples the fuel from each drain point. You can bet he is a liar. EVERY PRO TURBINE PILOT I FLOWN with SAYS "You pick up that sample cup and I will break your fingers" Just saying

Username Protected · **Posted:** 18 Apr 2015, 19:51

Thanks for explaining Mark. Yes, instructor pulled out the PTS later and said he would discuss with DPE. Obviously, he deals more with him than me. I only posted to make other folks aware, not to start a beat up the DPE thread.
I'm very happy to have this behind me. I think it's a very positive accomplishment, and one I would never be required to do. It's a license to learn and I'll use it to improve my jet skills until up to the level in my KA which is pretty safe and proficient.
A lot of folks have let me know they enjoy hearing about the experience good and bad. That's why I'm posting. Obviously, the rest of the ride went well. No problems with V1 cuts, aborts, and all the other required maneuvers. I could do an ILS using Garmins coupled to AP in my sleep, but between getting behind on the maneuvers, then, getting turned in early with a lot of other things going on, I didn't hit VLOC. By the time I figured it our and flew the raw data, I was out of standards. Went around late. Safe, but late. So, I'll incorporate a procedure where when I verify localizer, VLOC is also selected. If in NAV mode to get to intercept, I'll repeat approach is armed, VLOC to go. Also, should have asked co-pilot if he agreed the approach was properly set. Unfortunately, between approach and instructions, he was swamped right then.

Best,

Dave

Username Protected · **Posted:** 18 Apr 2015, 19:55

Username Protected wrote:

I could get used to this!

It was quiet, smooth, fast, and easy to fly. Loved it.

Congrats guys. Great airplanes.

Looking sharp bud. Come fly some of these trips with me. Thank me later.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 18 Apr 2015, 19:56

Username Protected wrote:

I could get used to this!

It was quiet, smooth, fast, and easy to fly. Loved it.

Congrats guys. Great airplanes.

Looking sharp bud. Come fly some of these trips with me. Thank me later.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 18 Apr 2015, 21:22

Username Protected wrote:

You may be reading into things a bit or I may not be explaining them right. In the approach stall I'm purportedly low to the ground. He wanted the nose lowered, but not to brown on the AI--more level and power up to accelerate out which made sense to me later. Problem was, I had been coached by a past instructor to bring the nose a bit lower to where there was some brown on the AI. Of course, I had to keep the nose down a bit while the plane accelerated to avoid a secondary stall. I think I lost about 100 feet which he said wasn't bad, he just disagreed with how much I had lowered the nose when I was supposed to be close to the ground.
The clean stall is what would occur in flight levels, I did that fine by lowering the nose and recovering.
Guys, I'm not posting this to beat up the DPE; I have no disagreement with anything he did. I do feel I may have been taught early on to lower the nose a bit too much on the approach stall. Far from a perfect ride on my part; I can always improve.

Pretty tired when I posted. The approach stall got me behind a bit. When we did the approach I didn't hit the VLOC switch on the Garmin until pretty close in. Got off more than two degrees on the localizer which didn't meet standards: that's when he asked if I wanted to terminate the ride. I did go-around, but instructor agreed I should have done it earlier.

Sorry if I'm starting any controversy. That's not my intent. I'll quit posting about this if it's going to stir folks up.

Dave

I think there is some good learning going on here.

Not sure if your CFI or the DPE mentioned that the position of the Citation engines causes pitch down when power is added. So when you are doing a stall recovery and add power you need to pull back on the yoke to just stay level. This is counter to stall recoveries most pilots have previously learned. I think the DPE wanted to see that you understand that and know how to halt the pitch down when you add power.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 18 Apr 2015, 21:27

That's right on Allen! I normally compensate, but may not have been using enough. Great insight.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 18 Apr 2015, 22:24

Username Protected wrote:

You may be reading into things a bit or I may not be explaining them right.

Naw, don't quit posting. My message came out a little more harsh than it needed to be.

I just get heartburn over DPEs (and pilots) who think they can do as they wish. The PTS was written mostly to LIMIT what DPEs could do. For example when DPEs were not limited, they'd say, "Ok, let's shoot the ADF to El Alto Airport in Bolivia (13,323' Elevation), using this AM station here." Or, go around, from 200' on final in a 150 HP Apache with the left one actually feathered (real example from my MEL checkride, in Lakeland FL, 1957.) Or, all steep banks will be 60 degrees (DC-3 check, Ft Lauderdale FL, 1963. Long before PTSs.

And, I know of no maneuver more useless than stalls on a check ride. Over the years, I've seen about every variety of recovery, depending on the mood of the FAA "this year." Busting an applicant because he lowers the nose too much, or because he doesn't lower it all is utter nonsense.

There I go again!

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Apr 2015, 10:14

Thanks for the comments folks.
Another thing that is really interesting to me is how modified these older planes are. It may be just as important to chose a plane with familiar avionics as which plane you fly. In the Citation V in which I practiced, they had the old radios, old Global XLS GPS and where one pushed buttons to engage gps, heading and nav were completely different than this plane. Knowing the avionics can give one a real leg up. Even though flying crew, the buttons to instruct the gps and altitude hold were in front of the pilot. Co-pilot could remind the pilot, but the pilot had to push the buttons.
I've been flying behind Garmin units a long time and often times know more about how to use them than the instructor. In a plane with one of these older systems where I don't know it, I can easily get behind an approach just trying to figure out if it's properly set up on the box.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Apr 2015, 10:21

Username Protected wrote:

A lot of folks have let me know they enjoy hearing about the experience good and bad. That's why I'm posting.

I (and on behalf of others who also) love reading them and learn lots, thankyou!

:thumbup:

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Apr 2015, 10:27

Congrats on passing ride !

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Apr 2015, 14:06

Gratuitous pic in front on the Citation II.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Apr 2015, 14:18

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Apr 2015, 20:58

Dave,

That picture reminds me of the ones all the Air Force guys get, standing on the boarding ladder of a T-38. You need to cradle your helmet and look toward the sky.

I hope you post it for the rest of your friends... :bow:

Jeff

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Apr 2015, 21:24

Username Protected wrote:

That picture reminds me of the ones all the Air Force guys get, standing on the boarding ladder of a T-38. You need to cradle your helmet and look toward the sky.

Iirc Dave has one of those pictures.

Flying the Citation II