True, but it's a significant price delta if all else is similar.

The certification requirements have probably changed since the TBM was approved. Also I'm not certain but there may be differences between the requirements for TP vs jet.

The rule exists because of safety and technical reasons.


Even if the rules do change, which I doubt, then SF50 won't be going to FL410. It would need an extensive redesign to do that.

Mike C.

You won't think it is a wash if you need to fly over 1000 nm. Having a 24% better specific range results in a big increase in range.

Mike C.

Practice makes perfect, I guess.


The CJ4 is not a personal jet for that reason alone. A personal jet should be a jet that is economical to buy and operate so it opens up personal jet travel to more individuals. It defines a new price/capability point. It is intended to operate primarily by owner operators, not pro crewed.

In my mind that means a light airplane, well under 10,000 lbs, low price, say under $4M, and low operating cost, say $1Kish/hour.

That's what I think is a personal jet. Some might call it a VLJ.

Cirrus had a chance to design such a thing, but crippled it with one engine.

Mike C.

If one airplane can be made to fly safely single engine at FL310, so can another.

Yeah, it's likely not going to FL410 in it's present form, it was never designed to do that. But SF50 G2 (or whatever next iteration they come up with) very well could go higher if they decide there is some practical benefit to it.

There you go again, using logic when it comes to FAA rules. :-)

That sort of reasoning means all new planes should be certifiable with any old rules. But that's not the way the system works. It just gets harder and harder.

They are already pushing it above FL250 by some means as yet unknown, and that has yet to be confirmed by the FAA. It would not be too surprising if FL250 is the initial ceiling.

Even if they get FL310, it helps some, but jets really need to go higher than that to really perform.

Mike C.

Practice makes perfect, I guess.


The CJ4 is not a personal jet for that reason alone. A personal jet should be a jet that is economical to buy and operate so it opens up personal jet travel to more individuals. It defines a new price/capability point. It is intended to operate primarily by owner operators, not pro crewed.

In my mind that means a light airplane, well under 10,000 lbs, low price, say under $4M, and low operating cost, say $1Kish/hour.

That's what I think is a personal jet. Some might call it a VLJ.

Mike C.

I disagree with it too.

Anything single pilot is a "personal jet". I think all SP jets cost about the same to run. Eclipse vs. CJ4 are extreme opposites but I bet they're still a few hundred $$ apart..... Not thousands of $$ apart.

TBM vs. Pilatus vs. Meridien...... They all cost the same to run. A couple hundred $$ difference is no difference because it can't be measured.

Ah yes..... A jet for "the people"!

Once you're in the "buying jets" category of life there are just as many people that can afford CJ4's as SF50's.

A CJ4 is no more "pro-crewed" than an SF50. Both pilots will need to do 2 weeks of initial training and a type rating. Training for both planes is the same. Cost to run both planes is the same. MX for both places is the same. The only difference is acquisition cost which comes down to profitability vs. write downs. Folks are trading up and trading down all the time.

I don't buy C and D numbers. Where you hangar and where you fly to impacts the numbers greatly. I can pay $6 a gallon and hundreds of $$ per night to park flying to some locations or I can pay $1.95 per gallon and spend $0 per night to park. It all depends on how you use it.

I also believe "price per hour" is a silly way of looking at things.

If you live in a metropolitan area and get your service done at a legitimate shop you're going to spend $1K+ per hour to operate a turbine. If you live in the sticks and do your own MX then maybe you can get down below that number. But that's not reality for most turbine owners.

Everyone needs to quit using the term "personal jet".

I think this qualifies as a personal jet:
http://www.sonexaircraft.com/subsonex/index.html

Anything else, you sort of need to define personal.

Tim

Practice makes perfect, I guess.


The CJ4 is not a personal jet for that reason alone. A personal jet should be a jet that is economical to buy and operate so it opens up personal jet travel to more individuals. It defines a new price/capability point. It is intended to operate primarily by owner operators, not pro crewed.

In my mind that means a light airplane, well under 10,000 lbs, low price, say under $4M, and low operating cost, say $1Kish/hour.

That's what I think is a personal jet. Some might call it a VLJ.

Cirrus had a chance to design such a thing, but crippled it with one engine.

Mike C.

The majority of CJ4s are not owner flown, hired crew.

The majority of SF50s will be owner flown.

The two airplanes target different markets.

Mike C.

The majority of CJ4s are not owner flown, hired crew.

The majority of SF50s will be owner flown.

The two airplanes target different markets.

Mike C.