BeechTalk - BT

Username Protected · **Posted:** 12 Mar 2018, 11:33

Username Protected wrote:

Funny how 224 pages in this thread really needs to get renamed: "Mark's Jet Elite Thinking Out and Trying to Convert the Piston Pilots" thread

Enjoying every minute of it.

Jet Elite.... I thought it was the name of a charter company or company that he leased the jet from?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 12 Mar 2018, 11:39

Username Protected wrote:

So why don’t they round it?

Because they don’t want you to start the turn prior to 500’agl, but want the turn initiated as soon as you pass through 500’agl. Picky picky picky.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 12 Mar 2018, 11:39

Username Protected wrote:

Circling back to the 50 hours for 5 years idea, I had some thoughts.

Challenges:
Perception - The actual cost of this for you is more than most people will value it at. This is a $500K+ expense and if the sellers knew this, they'd probably rather have the cash. Seems like you'd be buying $5 bills for $10.

5 years - That's a long time, what would you do if you had a health challenge? Its fun to think about flying them around for the next 5 but painful to think of having to hire somebody else to do it while hoping to get your medical back.

I feel like staying in touch with the sellers after the deal is done is like trying to be friends after a break-up. At some point you are hoping to sell their company for considerably more than you paid for it, I'm not sure I'd want to be flying around with those folks once they figured that out.

Good points all. But consider the following....1) no one else is able to offer that. There are sharks in the water. 2) a jet card will cost them what? 4K an hour? They love love the jet. It’s changes their life. I am offering them 4-5k an hour and it’s only costing me $2k If i professionally crew it. So they are getting $2m and it’s costing me a mil? Plus I get to use that to justify a jet acquisition.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 12 Mar 2018, 11:40

So what're you saying, once you add Mike to the Jet Elite Club you quelled the naysayer by bringing him into the inner circle and your job is done?

You are passive aggressive!

Username Protected · **Posted:** 12 Mar 2018, 11:40

Username Protected wrote:

So why don’t they round it?

Because they don’t want you to start the turn prior to 500’agl, but want the turn initiated as soon as you pass through 500’agl. Picky picky picky.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 12 Mar 2018, 11:41

Username Protected wrote:

So what're you saying, once you add Mike to the Jet Elite Club you quelled the naysayer by bringing him into the inner circle and your job is done?

You are passive aggressive!

Username Protected · **Posted:** 12 Mar 2018, 11:41

Username Protected · **Posted:** 12 Mar 2018, 11:45

Username Protected wrote:

So they do care if I wait until 2700?

Like Wally said, I don’t think they’ll notice. The critical piece is not turning prior to 500’agl.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 12 Mar 2018, 11:50

Username Protected wrote:

So they do care if I wait until 2700?

Like Wally said, I don’t think they’ll notice. The critical piece is not turning prior to 500’agl.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 12 Mar 2018, 13:10

Username Protected wrote:

So why don’t they round it?

That would be a question for Jeppesen and the FAA chart makers. Attached is the FAA source. Note it is only about courses, not headings. Nor is the altitude 2,682' on the source. That was added by the chart makers as the minimum altitude for LNAV engagement. It is not a turn point. It is a bit clearer on the FAA chart.

In the high-end FMSes LNAV will auto-engage passing through 2,682' provided LNAV is armed.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 12 Mar 2018, 14:05

I stand corrected. The FAA IFP Gateway is not updated to the PRFUM 4. The source I showed is the previous DP. Attached is the current DP with the headings and the reason provided on page 4.( #12 )

Username Protected · **Posted:** 12 Mar 2018, 15:56

Username Protected wrote:

In the high-end FMSes LNAV will auto-engage passing through 2,682' provided LNAV is armed.

With the Collins FMS-3000 the setup would be to set departure heading on the ground and press HDG and NAV. That engages heading mode and arms NAV (LNAV) mode.

The FMS-3000 will normally stay in HDG mode until 400' then go to NAV mode. Following the standard rule for an IFR departure of no turns below 400' AGL.

Wally, are you saying there is coding in the DB that tells the FMS-3000 to stay in HDG until 2,682'(501')?

How is is pilot supposed to know that LNAV is not permitted until 2,682 on this leg?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 12 Mar 2018, 18:32

Username Protected wrote:

In the high-end FMSes LNAV will auto-engage passing through 2,682' provided LNAV is armed.

With the Collins FMS-3000 the setup would be to set departure heading on the ground and press HDG and NAV. That engages heading mode and arms NAV (LNAV) mode.

The FMS-3000 will normally stay in HDG mode until 400' then go to NAV mode. Following the standard rule for an IFR departure of no turns below 400' AGL.

Wally, are you saying there is coding in the DB that tells the FMS-3000 to stay in HDG until 2,682'(501')?

How is is pilot supposed to know that LNAV is not permitted until 2,682 on this leg?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 12 Mar 2018, 18:40

This is the language cited from FAAO 8260.58A:

5-1-1. General. Segment XTT is RNAV 1 or RNP 1 where RF turns are indicated.

a. ICA. Departure procedures begin with an ICA constructed in accordance with Order 8260.3, paragraph 14-1-6, except where modified by this order.

(1) The ICA must be long enough to allow LNAV engagement (500 feet above airport elevation).

Username Protected · **Posted:** 12 Mar 2018, 20:26

Username Protected wrote:

This is the language cited from FAAO 8260.58A:

5-1-1. General. Segment XTT is RNAV 1 or RNP 1 where RF turns are indicated.

a. ICA. Departure procedures begin with an ICA constructed in accordance with Order 8260.3, paragraph 14-1-6, except where modified by this order.

(1) The ICA must be long enough to allow LNAV engagement (500 feet above airport elevation).

I think that procedure designer got the wording on the note wrong when it said the "MINIMUM LNAV engagement altitude is 500' ..."

Attachment:

2018-03-12_2009.png

8260.58 https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/Order_8260_58A_CHG_1_Consolidated.pdf says the ICA must be long enough to allow LNAV engagement (500 feet above airport elevation). It does not say that LNAV cannot be engaged before 500'.

Attachment:

2018-03-12_2011.png

Now 8260.3 https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/FAA_Order_8260.3C.pdf is what established the no turns below 400' on the initial climb that we all learn. But 8260.3 does not care about LNAV engagement.

Attachment:

2018-03-12_2014.png

The FAA assumes most RNAV departures will be flown with LNAV engaged. It looks like they want to give the FMS an additional 100' buffer to get LNAV engaged after the 400' in the initial climb before there are any turns on an RNAV departure. Nothing says 500' is the minimum LNAV engagement altitude. LNAV can be engaged between 400' and 500' but no turns designed into the RNAV departure below 500' according to 8260.58.

I think I see what is going on with RNAV departure design. But the average pilot looking at the charts would have no clue as to why that altitude is there.

Flying the Citation II