06 Jun 2025, 15:07 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Flying the 421 today. Posted: 25 Nov 2014, 15:02 |
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Joined: 10/10/10 Posts: 676 Post Likes: +490
Aircraft: C441 Conquest II
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Username Protected wrote: You mean there are no calendar inspections on a MU2 like the king air's? A 421 does not have time limited inspections. Annuals excluded. There are very few. The 100 hour and 200 hour must be done at least annually, so effectively they form the annual inspection. Obviously there are the 24 month IFR checks. The 4 blade MU-2s have a 60 month inspection on the prop hubs but there's an AMOC that pushes that out to 84 months. O2 Bottle is every 5 year hydro and there are some other calendar items, but almost everything is by hours or cycles. One of the big reasons I bought the MU-2 over a King Air (other than faster speeds at lower fuel burns and lower acquisition cost!) was because the MU-2 maintenance schedule does NOT have the SIDS or some of the crazy phase inspections Beechcraft has in place for the King Airs. Overall, I estimated (and this was just my analysis) that the MX costs for an MU-2 would be around 50% of a comparable age King Air.
You really need to look at both the engine and airframe maintenance schedules for the two planes. For example, almost every MU-2 has the engines on the 5000 Hour TBO schedule with one HSI due at 2500 hours. Take a look at a PT-6 mx sked.
I agree with the comments raised above regarding MU-2 mx costs. I think over a few years (NOT counting overhaul costs as I explained in my post), the MU-2 will come out cheaper than cabin class piston twins or a King Air. The 22K example above had some unusual costs rolled into it - the battery replacement (mine were five years old when I replaced them at a cost of $3.6K for the pair), the flap jack screw, oil change (every 900 hours means it is something you end up doing about once every 6-8 years), etc. The costs for several items seemed higher than what I have paid as well...not sure who that person was using for MX. I've had my MX done at a service center (twice) and by one of the top MU-2 folks (for a different look) once. This Feb it is going to a different service center (I want to give them some of my business and am getting some upgrades done at the same time). WRT MX costs, note I said I used $12K as an average planning cost knowing that major items were by time and could be planned for (for example when I have to do an oil change). To date, I have found that 12K has been a good "average number" across several years of data.
Note I am NOT saying maintaining an MU-2 is cheap...just that when I did the math I found overall ownership costs to be surprisingly similar to a C421 yet I had a turbine plane with the increased performance, reliability and capability. Before I did the research I had assumed stepping up to the turbine world would be significantly more expensive.
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Post subject: Re: Flying the 421 today. Posted: 25 Nov 2014, 17:19 |
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Joined: 06/09/09 Posts: 4438 Post Likes: +3304
Aircraft: C182P, Merlin IIIC
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Username Protected wrote: Note I am NOT saying maintaining an MU-2 is cheap...just that when I did the math I found overall ownership costs to be surprisingly similar to a C421 yet I had a turbine plane with the increased performance, reliability and capability. Before I did the research I had assumed stepping up to the turbine world would be significantly more expensive.
That's it in a nutshell.
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Post subject: Re: Flying the 421 today. Posted: 01 Dec 2014, 11:30 |
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Joined: 10/10/10 Posts: 676 Post Likes: +490
Aircraft: C441 Conquest II
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Since there were some questions about numbers, I pulled my financials over the holiday weekend to give you all some actuals.
In three years of owning the plane, I've flown it 164.5 hours , averaging 54.8 hours per year (note these are actual flight hours based on the squat switch). I had planned on 80-100 hours per year but the reality is this plane is faster and as a result, less hours flown for same number/distance trips. Obviously more hours will drop hourly costs until you hit >100 hours per year when a second 100 hour inspection becomes necessary (the 100 hour is required every 100 hours or annually).
So, costs:
Fuel - $63,798.43 or $387.83/hour.
Just for giggles -- If fuel costs $4.41/gal (my average cost this year), that equates to 87.9 gph. If fuel costs $6.30/gal (ballpark number for 100LL), that would equate to 61.56 gph (which is not much higher than what you would actually be burning in a cabin-class piston twin). This is what drives my conclusion that fuel costs per hour and per trip are pretty close to a wash between the MU-2 and the 421.
Maintenance - $43,551.56 or $264.75/hour. This is for all maintenance. I had three unscheduled maintenance items in the first year of ownership (a failed beta switch, a blown oleo seal and a failed pressure reg valve). Cost of those three items was $1,982.73. My second year I did replace both batteries but that is necessary around every 5 years or so, I just happened to get it that year (the batteries were 5.5 years old).
In addition, $10,142.33 of that $43K in maintenance was optional -- I chose to have all the autopilot servos overhauled because I couldn't find a record of when they had been overhauled in this 35 year old plane and I felt it prudent to perform this proactive maintenance. If not for that choice, my total maintenance would have been $33,409.23 or $203.10/hour, $11,136.41/year.
Insurance (1M smooth with a 500K hull value) was $9,814.00 the first year, this year it was $7,715. My initial training cost $7K, recurrent is $3K annually.
So what is the grand total counting everything (hangar, GPS subscriptions, insurance, maintenance, fuel, note on plane...literally every dime spent)? $243,187.03 or $1,478.34/hour. If you subtract the cost of the loan out of it, the numbers become $189,579.67 or $1,152.46/hour.
Bottom line (as others have said), with a turbine your fuel burn goes up, but fuel is cheaper and you fly faster so fuel costs end up being pretty close to what you would pay for a cabin class twin. With the exception of major maintenance events (which you can plan for), you tend to go inspection to inspection with no MX issues and I think $12K/year is a good round number for an MU-2. In the research I did before purchasing, I found that King Air MX tended to be more (to the tune of somewhere between 50-100% more) than the MU-2. Part of this are the Beech/Raytheon/Hawker/whatever SIDS and pricey MX events and part is the difference in MX between a Garrett and a P&W PT-6.
Again, you can play with these numbers all you want and obviously they can be interpreted many ways. I look at it as my first hour of the year costing me $12K for the hangar, $8K for insurance, $3K for recurrent training, $12K for MX or a total of $35K. After that, every flight hour costs me around $400 for fuel.
Obviously I haven't talked about the cost of money...but this is part of the reason I have a low interest note vice tying up all my money in the plane. Both approaches have pros and cons, this was just the approach I took.
Hope this is helpful to others.
Dave
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Post subject: Re: Flying the 421 today. Posted: 01 Dec 2014, 13:09 |
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Joined: 01/31/10 Posts: 13469 Post Likes: +7554 Company: 320 Fam
Aircraft: 58TC, E-55, 195
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Username Protected wrote: Since there were some questions about numbers, I pulled my financials over the holiday weekend to give you all some actuals.
In three years of owning the plane, I've flown it 164.5 hours , averaging 54.8 hours per year (note these are actual flight hours based on the squat switch). I had planned on 80-100 hours per year but the reality is this plane is faster and as a result, less hours flown for same number/distance trips. Obviously more hours will drop hourly costs until you hit >100 hours per year when a second 100 hour inspection becomes necessary (the 100 hour is required every 100 hours or annually).
So, costs:
Fuel - $63,798.43 or $387.83/hour.
Just for giggles -- If fuel costs $4.41/gal (my average cost this year), that equates to 87.9 gph. If fuel costs $6.30/gal (ballpark number for 100LL), that would equate to 61.56 gph (which is not much higher than what you would actually be burning in a cabin-class piston twin). This is what drives my conclusion that fuel costs per hour and per trip are pretty close to a wash between the MU-2 and the 421.
Maintenance - $43,551.56 or $264.75/hour. This is for all maintenance. I had three unscheduled maintenance items in the first year of ownership (a failed beta switch, a blown oleo seal and a failed pressure reg valve). Cost of those three items was $1,982.73. My second year I did replace both batteries but that is necessary around every 5 years or so, I just happened to get it that year (the batteries were 5.5 years old).
In addition, $10,142.33 of that $43K in maintenance was optional -- I chose to have all the autopilot servos overhauled because I couldn't find a record of when they had been overhauled in this 35 year old plane and I felt it prudent to perform this proactive maintenance. If not for that choice, my total maintenance would have been $33,409.23 or $203.10/hour, $11,136.41/year.
Insurance (1M smooth with a 500K hull value) was $9,814.00 the first year, this year it was $7,715. My initial training cost $7K, recurrent is $3K annually.
So what is the grand total counting everything (hangar, GPS subscriptions, insurance, maintenance, fuel, note on plane...literally every dime spent)? $243,187.03 or $1,478.34/hour. If you subtract the cost of the loan out of it, the numbers become $189,579.67 or $1,152.46/hour.
Bottom line (as others have said), with a turbine your fuel burn goes up, but fuel is cheaper and you fly faster so fuel costs end up being pretty close to what you would pay for a cabin class twin. With the exception of major maintenance events (which you can plan for), you tend to go inspection to inspection with no MX issues and I think $12K/year is a good round number for an MU-2. In the research I did before purchasing, I found that King Air MX tended to be more (to the tune of somewhere between 50-100% more) than the MU-2. Part of this are the Beech/Raytheon/Hawker/whatever SIDS and pricey MX events and part is the difference in MX between a Garrett and a P&W PT-6.
Again, you can play with these numbers all you want and obviously they can be interpreted many ways. I look at it as my first hour of the year costing me $12K for the hangar, $8K for insurance, $3K for recurrent training, $12K for MX or a total of $35K. After that, every flight hour costs me around $400 for fuel.
Obviously I haven't talked about the cost of money...but this is part of the reason I have a low interest note vice tying up all my money in the plane. Both approaches have pros and cons, this was just the approach I took.
Hope this is helpful to others.
Dave Can you tell us avg. trip length and block speeds? I'm curious about cost/NM. Best,
_________________ Views are my own and don’t represent employers or clients My E55 : https://tinyurl.com/4dvxhwxu
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Post subject: Re: Flying the 421 today. Posted: 01 Dec 2014, 16:27 |
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Joined: 11/08/12 Posts: 12804 Post Likes: +5254 Location: Jackson, MS (KHKS)
Aircraft: 1961 Cessna 172
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Username Protected wrote: Can you tell us avg. trip length and block speeds? I'm curious about cost/NM.
Best,
Lot of variation among MU2s, almost as much among King Airs, dependent upon 1) engines (-10>>-5 or -6>>-1) 2) short/long body (short >> long) 3) 3 vs 4 blade props. (3 > 4) Fair amount of information at http://www.anacondaaviation.com/tech.htmThe fltplan.com models are reputed to be accurate and show the Marquise (long body, -10, 4 blade) blocking about 260 kts. (They have 421 blocking just under 200)
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Post subject: Re: Flying the 421 today. Posted: 02 Dec 2014, 23:54 |
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Joined: 08/03/08 Posts: 16153 Post Likes: +8869 Location: 2W5
Aircraft: A36
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Username Protected wrote: I felt my wallet shudder in my pocket when I read this post... Yeah, but look at his profile/avatar picture (I case it doesn't show, here is an artists rendering of it:  ).
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Post subject: Re: Flying the 421 today. Posted: 03 Dec 2014, 10:54 |
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Joined: 08/03/08 Posts: 16153 Post Likes: +8869 Location: 2W5
Aircraft: A36
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Username Protected wrote: Yeah...it makes you smile every time you realize you're flying such an incredible machine with that kind of performance. Also, if you look at the pic, the left engine is shut down...cuts your fuel burn by 50%! (Just kidding). What, an engine shut down ? I thought they immediately turn into a deathly lawn-dart the second that happens (its on the internet, and they can't put anything that isn't true on the internet, bonjour!)
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Post subject: Re: Flying the 421 today. Posted: 04 Dec 2014, 21:42 |
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Joined: 08/08/12 Posts: 1445 Post Likes: +938
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Username Protected wrote: You got it Florian. The plane is such a death trap that since the SFAR went into effect (requiring pilots who fly this plane to be trained in how to fly it correctly...what a concept) it is now the safest twin turbo prop in the world! Clearly every time I go to recurrent training or perform an engine shutdown to verify the NTS system is functioning correctly I am on the edge of death (sarcasm).
It's amazing how many internet experts (and even lawyers and legal experts who testified at trials about the MU-2)...have never flown one... Yep, the safest turboprop in the world...yet I don't think the world knows that yet.
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