16 Jun 2025, 17:54 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Username Protected
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II  Posted: 28 Feb 2018, 08:10 |
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Joined: 06/08/12
Posts: 12581
Post Likes: +5188
Company: Mayo Clinic
Location: Rochester, MN
Aircraft: Planeless in RST
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Username Protected wrote: [youtube]https://youtu.be/WHQni3yOMKs[/youtube]
As always tap the link above the thumbnail to run in the youtube app. Tapping thumbnail is just a fail. Like a boss!
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BFR 8/18; IPC 8/18
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 28 Feb 2018, 09:15 |
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Joined: 05/29/13
Posts: 14343
Post Likes: +12088
Company: Easy Ice, LLC
Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
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Username Protected wrote: I shot a very similar approach yesterday into KADS. Well you have a trailing link gear so you don’t have to work so hard to smooth it in. 
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Mark Hangen
Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson)
Power of the Turbine
"Jet Elite"
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 28 Feb 2018, 09:33 |
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Joined: 05/29/13
Posts: 14343
Post Likes: +12088
Company: Easy Ice, LLC
Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
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Username Protected wrote: Dodged some WX on descent. Pretty significant icing (SLD) for a few minutes coming down from FL300, I should have taken a bigger swath around the storm we were dodging but nothing was painting. Got the same icing.
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Mark Hangen
Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson)
Power of the Turbine
"Jet Elite"
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 28 Feb 2018, 09:38 |
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Joined: 12/29/10
Posts: 2761
Post Likes: +2605
Location: Dallas, TX (KADS & KJWY)
Aircraft: T28B,7GCBC,E90
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Username Protected wrote: I shot a very similar approach yesterday into KADS. What's everyone doing in Dallas?! You guys could definitely have picked a better weather day... John - I office pretty near Addison if you have time for a drink/coffee/whatever. Robert
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 28 Feb 2018, 09:39 |
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Joined: 05/29/13
Posts: 14343
Post Likes: +12088
Company: Easy Ice, LLC
Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
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Username Protected wrote: I shot a very similar approach yesterday into KADS. What's everyone doing in Dallas?! You guys could definitely have picked a better weather day... John - I office pretty near Addison if you have time for a drink/coffee/whatever. Robert
Lunch at Royal Oaks? Or a drink later? I have a dinner there at 6. Breakfast thursday works too.
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Mark Hangen
Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson)
Power of the Turbine
"Jet Elite"
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 28 Feb 2018, 09:42 |
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Joined: 12/29/10
Posts: 2761
Post Likes: +2605
Location: Dallas, TX (KADS & KJWY)
Aircraft: T28B,7GCBC,E90
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Username Protected wrote:
Lunch at Royal Oaks? Or a drink later? I have a dinner their at 6
Late lunch works for me - I have a meeting that wraps up at 1. Robert
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 28 Feb 2018, 09:59 |
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Joined: 05/29/13
Posts: 14343
Post Likes: +12088
Company: Easy Ice, LLC
Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
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Username Protected wrote:
Lunch at Royal Oaks? Or a drink later? I have a dinner their at 6
Late lunch works for me - I have a meeting that wraps up at 1. Robert
I will be there. Put your name at guard shack. Men’s grill room. All the way to the back and then through locker room. See ya there !
_________________
Mark Hangen
Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson)
Power of the Turbine
"Jet Elite"
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Username Protected
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 28 Feb 2018, 10:04 |
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Joined: 01/31/10
Posts: 13490
Post Likes: +7585
Company: 320 Fam
Aircraft: 58TC, E-55, 195
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Username Protected wrote: The guy who taught my course was involved with a change at United to call V1 5kts early after several runway overruns in the industry. What this does is make the takeoff distance longer should an engine fail in those padded 5 knots. Basically, you are trying to fly when the airplane would stop sooner than flying. So instead of a runway overrun at relatively low speed, you are now looking at not being able to takeoff in the remaining runway at higher speed. Quote: The charts are based on “action” at V1 (to include some delay). The rules for working this all out are in in FAR 25.109 and AC 25-7C. It is pretty complicated and a mixture of aircraft and human performance. Suffice it to say the rules build in a 2 second delay from engine failure to pilot action. Also note that the rules are based on the engine failing at Vef (velocity of engine fail) which is LESS than V1, but it is taking recognition time for the pilot to detect an engine has failed. The recognition time is when the plane accelerates from Vef to V1. So the sequence is: Vef - engine fails Pilot recognizes engine failure V1 - over/under for fly/abort 2 seconds of delay Abort more delays for activating speedbrakes, TRs, etc... Here's the timing diagram from AC 25-7C: Attachment: accel-stop-timing-1.png Quote: Several incidents had crews who followed the procedure, but still went off the end. Then they didn't perform as the procedure intends when it comes to RTO. Mike C.
Nope. :D
This 5kt early call has less to do with the pilot action at V1. It has to do with the delay between the FO calling V1 and V1 registering in the PIC’s brain. All the rest applies of course.
Regarding your details, that is what I was referencing with “to include some delay”.
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My E55 : https://tinyurl.com/4dvxhwxu
Last edited on 28 Feb 2018, 10:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 28 Feb 2018, 10:08 |
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Joined: 01/31/10
Posts: 13490
Post Likes: +7585
Company: 320 Fam
Aircraft: 58TC, E-55, 195
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Username Protected wrote:
Even if you are SIC I am staying aware of the airspeed as we approach the bugged V1.
Anything causing me to abort close to V1 I will be aware of as PF - control issues, loss of directional control, smoke in cabin - otherwise we are flying unless we have a lot of extra runway. Engine fire, we are flying. Blown tire, we are flying. Go through the annunciator panel and think carefully about what you really need to abort for between 80 KTS and V1 in a Citation.
You will get during our pre-takeoff brief to call 80 KTS, what our abort criteria is between 80 and V1, and what we will do in case we fly with an engine problem.
How do you stay aware of airspeed approaching V1? Maybe I’m doing it wrong but I have been out the window when operating as a crew, other than airspeed alive and 80kts crosscheck. PS - I truly appreciate all of the experience here. Reading this thread prior to my initial gave me a leg up and its great to know I have a place to learn from experienced jet guys as I move forward.. And of course if Mark hadn’t opened the door for me a few months back I would not have pulled this off. Thanks buddy.
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Views are my own and don’t represent employers or clients
My E55 : https://tinyurl.com/4dvxhwxu
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 28 Feb 2018, 12:32 |
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Joined: 01/31/09
Posts: 5193
Post Likes: +3032
Location: Northern NJ
Aircraft: SR22;CJ2+;C510
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Username Protected wrote:
How do you stay aware of airspeed approaching V1?
Gotta learn to scan between inside and outside if you are going to fly SP. You get a hang for it and a feel for the speeds as you gain experience. It helps having V speeds bugged that you can glance at. That’s where having glass vs steam gauges helps.
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Allen
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Post subject: Re: Flying the Citation II Posted: 28 Feb 2018, 13:06 |
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Joined: 12/29/10
Posts: 2761
Post Likes: +2605
Location: Dallas, TX (KADS & KJWY)
Aircraft: T28B,7GCBC,E90
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Username Protected wrote: Gotta learn to scan between inside and outside if you are going to fly SP. You get a hang for it and a feel for the speeds as you gain experience. Interesting - That's something I do even on my 421. Even when I'm alone, I'll call out 'airspeed alive', 'crosscheck', '80', 'Rotate'. I don't have a V1 per-se, but my Vr is around 100kts. About the only time I'm not aware of my airspeed on takeoff is when I'm doing a formation takeoff in the T28, and then my focus is solely on lead's wing!! Robert
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