Generally true, however, if you have 500 hours turbine time (including only in turboprops), then the 25 hours SOE time is not required.

For me, I can type in the sim, and then go out and fly the jet, solo, without further requirements.

This is where insurance requirements and good sense kick in. I am certain my insurance for a jet will require some mentoring time, and I would welcome that. I'm not going to go fly the real thing solo right out of the sim.

Mike C.

I think everyone should chip in and buy one of these for Mike Ciholas.

I'd bet he could fly it! He's a taildragger guy at heart.

1. Why would the SF50 be more complex and longer then the CE-500? Remember, the SF-50 has fewer systems, fewer scenarios, lower altitude. And that is before any modernization is considered.
2. Talk to Cirrus sales rep. Tony, I and others have already posted significant information on what Cirrus is telling prospective customers and you have vastly underestimated the company and the salesman. So stop maligning them until you have some facts.

Tim

I'm not the one bragging it up as an "accomplishment". I simply don't see it as that big a deal, especially for a single engine plane operating at relatively low altitude like being discussed here.

Actually we should chip in and buy him one of these, because it is a twin jet. I am in for $100. Who else?

Auburn,

I learned to bash jets from a professional jet basher (you should know)!!!!!
On a side note, were you ever able to acquire the PA-47 (Piper Altaire) type rating? I know Piper is your favorite ride (second only to Cirrus) and since only one PA-47 exists it's a very hard type to get!!!

Actually we should chip in and buy him one of these, because it is a twin jet. I am in for $100. Who else?

Here is some info sent to me on a sim only type rating course at Simcom for the CE-500 type rating:

We offer a 14 day course for the CE-500 Type Rating which is required to fly the Citation 500, 550, or 560 models. The course includes 40 hours of ground school, 16 hours of systems integration training, and 14 hours in the left seat of our full motion, level C, Citation 550 simulator. The price for this course is $17,600.

The regular 4-day Recurrent is $5,990.

The SF50 course will not be substantively less effort, and perhaps more. It takes 2 weeks to complete the CE-500 type rating with full time effort and substantial home study prior and during the course. Then you have to pass the check ride at the end to ATP standards.

If you don't show up with an absolutely solid instrument scan and know instrument procedures cold, especially SIDs, STARs, go home, you aren't ready.

Every year, you have to train on the procedures again and do a check ride again.

Did every SF50 depositor understand the commitment a type rating requires? I doubt it.

Mike C.

What systems does the CE-500 have that the SF-50 doesn't? I can't think of one. They both have fuel systems, electrical systems, trim/autopilot systems, deice systems, etc.

What systems does the SF-50 have that the CE-500 doesn't? CAPS for one.


Modernization greatly increases the study material.

My MU2 has 20 pages of emergency/abnormal procedures. The Eclipse 500 has over 200 pages.

The reason is that for every modern/automatic system, you have to study how it SHOULD work, what the signs are for it NOT working, and what to do manually if you have to take over. For manual systems, you only study how to use it.

The modern integrated airplanes take way more study than the old steam gauge ones.


Your attempt to suggest my arguments are personal or lack basis will fail since they are not so.

Mike C.

There's the "simple" fallacy at work.

One engine doesn't make it simpler. Instead of a clearly defined procedure for engine failure in a twin jet (stop before V1, fly after), you've replaced that with a hugely complex and situation dependent procedure in the single. Instead of dual pressurization sources, now you have one, so that failure is now vastly more complex. Discussing if and when you need the chute is complex. Discussing how to actually use it, particularly with this "chute by wire" system, is complex, too.

Lower altitude doesn't make it simpler. A twin jet type rating spends almost zero time on flying at altitude. Whether the emergency descent starts from FL410 or FL280 makes nil difference. The vast majority of the twin jet flying to get the type rating occurs below 10,000 ft.

The SF50 is a JET. One or two engines doesn't change that. The SF50 type rating will be every bit as much work as the EA500 was.

Another thing is that there are a large number of CE-500 typed pilots AND instructors out there. Literally a millennia of training experience and history. This means the training has become quite refined and optimized, everybody has seen the common mistakes, everyone knows the common traps, everyone knows the best practices and techniques. For the SF50, EVERYONE is a rookie, even the instructors. The blind leading the blind.

Mike C.

I think the Eclipse having 200 pages is just crazy.
But look in the Cirrus SR22 emergency procedures, not nearly that long.
And automation does not have to increase complexity. It can make it a lot easier. Just look at the engine trouble shooting for the DA-42. Engine alert, switch master, then land.

Tim