Mike,You need to read what I said,I did not say that my airplane was worth more than a new one,what I said is that "Vref values my aircraft at $300,000 more than I paid".There is no question that you are pleased with your purchase and I am also pleased with both of mine.

The 501 is not a very good performer. My 560 has about the same fuel efficiency in still air despite being so much larger and faster, and in a headwind, can do better. My plane can do that due to more efficient engines and better wing design than the 501.

Would you take that today?? If so, I can bring you about 5 buyers...

So you sell it for 1.6m and buy an old beater MU2 for 200k... think of the interest you could earn on 1.4m, would cover your whole operating budget !

We've been trying to justify this plane or that plane using dollars alone. I think it's a fool's errand.

We all agree that GA can be a money-saver or money-maker for certain businesses. The ability to rid yourself of the yoke of the airline schedule can lead to amazing leaps in productivity.

For those of us who don't cross oceans, at some point there is a tradeoff. No matter how much money you have available to spend, is arriving 30 minutes earlier and burning 400 lbs more fuel worth the extra capital cost and operating expense just in terms of money saved or earned?

I think for me the line is right at "older MU-2." Anything more than that is tough to justify using dollars alone. I have to start dipping into the "because I want to" or "because I can" buckets of rationalizing.

Agreed Jim, I travel with more equipment than I could possibly carry or check on an airline flight, and I have a hectic schedule at times, if I fly the airlines, I lose money shipping and insuring equipment and waiting on flight schedules

The reason I paid more for more airplane was primarily dispatch rate and reliability, I wasn't getting that with a single engine piston

I bought a KA with no hesitancy because in my opinion they are a blue chip asset in this market, I don't feel the same way about a MU2, and you'd really have to convince me of the 501/500, but I agree the new Garmin offerings that are coming will really help there

I just don't get excited about allocating $1m+ on a 40-50year old airframe, no thanks for this guy, but that doesn't mean it won't work for others, there's always a market

This has been an interesting thread to say the least.

Lot's of information shared.

I even shared an actual quote, I'd like to see more actual quotes.

For those who are reading this trying to figure out whose numbers are accurate and whose are not, just do what I do, call three facilities and ask them for an average of their last three invoices for whatever work scope you are interested in.

This is what we do with hot sections and overhauls, what they quote you is a base price and is just the beginning, but they should be able to tell you what the last three actually cost and that will give you an idea of what the real numbers are.

Same with phase inspections on a Citation, just call around and ask what the last couple of Phase 5's cost, that will give you a real number.

My bad, somehow I thought you bought it new, maybe the talk of the warranty led me to that conclusion.

Your hull value appreciation is reasonable given market conditions.

Mike C.

My bad, somehow I thought you bought it new, maybe the talk of the warranty led me to that conclusion.

Your hull value appreciation is reasonable given market conditions.

Mike C.

Correct.

It wasn't nearly as much in late 2020. The market has moved.


Absolutely.

It is a little more than 2 seats, however. it is FL450 ceiling, 420 KTAS, 1800 nm range, newer, etc.

My overall point is that my fuel efficiency is not a lot worse than a 501. This comes from flying higher, faster, better wing, more efficient engines.

The 501 is the best entry level jet for transitioning pilots. The 560 suffers from the need to have an SPE to fly it single pilot which has entrance requirements many pilots don't meet and extra training.

The 560 also suffers from a market run up in value that prices it out of reach for many. It can still be a front line charter aircraft, whereas the 501 doesn't really play in that market.

Mike C.

Yes, I know. I literally get inquiries to buy my plane almost every day.

I would not sell it for that today because the plane is worth a lot more to me as it is now having been fixed up and because I couldn't replace it for that, either.

Maybe at $2M I'd consider it, but nothing lower, and I doubt there are buyers at that level.

I'm sure in time the market value will drop. We live in unusual times.

Mike C.

Chip

I have said what Duncan quoted. I talked to them about it and saw the email from them. Did they do a quote that was in the system, no. That does not mean they didn’t give a price. They just told me in order to do an official quote they need a ICA. Wasn’t worth providing all that when the price was way high.

You are literally calling me a liar. Which is fine because I could care less what you think. Your opinion is useless to me. The bad part is others believe your crap and pay the literal price for it.

Let’s do this. What do you think Duncan would charge for a 1-4 on an eagle II? Your idea of calling and asking them the last 3 they did won’t work LOL. I would love to see any quote from Duncan doing a 1-4 on an Eagle II. No way anyone is taking an Eagle II to Duncan for 1-4. That’s the point.

You are forgetting that Duncan is the only shop on my home field. I wanted to use them. Others were around $20k or just under. If Duncan was under $40k I would have used them as it cost me a lot to reposition.

Ironically all of your arguments on here is that you only use shops that rip people off. LOL. Yes we understand you have a lot of expensive experience. That’s kind of the point. You have very little experience maintaining a legacy citation on a budget. You keep saying it’s not possible and calling the guys doing it liars and frauds.

Mike

Absolutely true.

However, iterating this logic, I will eventually end up with a bicycle.

Having money isn't actually satisfying, it is what you do with it that defines your life. For me, I managed to start in a Cessna 170B and I doubt I will go any higher than my Citation V. I managed to get more airplane than typical by doing in depth analysis and being heavily involved at each stage. In some cases, I really stretched, like getting the MU2, probably the biggest step I ever made along the way.

My first airplane, a 1954 Cessna 170B with 180 HP CS conversion, bought before I even had any logged hours, was $21K in 1988. I didn't have the money, and I borrowed it from my parents, who at the time didn't have the money either and they took out a loan at a bank using home equity. Think about that, a 24 year old in their first job, that the parents leverage their house so they can buy a plane. The courage and faith that represented at the time seems exceptional to me now.

Fast forward to 3 years ago and the Citation represented the lowest percentage of my net worth of any airplane I ever bought, but yet seemed the riskiest at the time. Of course, it wasn't and has been a stellar investment both in the utility and the hull value increase.

Every time I get a new plane, my business grows substantially soon afterward. Is it the utility? Or the new motivation? Can't tell, but I like it either way.

Mike C.

that's how someone should answer the question of why they bought a new plane vs a 40 year old legacy citation too.