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 Post subject: Re: Boeing Starliner: 80 Problems
PostPosted: 07 Sep 2024, 08:31 
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Username Protected wrote:
So the thrusters worked?

It would seem so. The underlying problem remains but they worked, or at least enough of them did.

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 Post subject: Re: Boeing Starliner: 80 Problems
PostPosted: 11 Sep 2024, 07:28 
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Username Protected wrote:
So the thrusters worked?

It would seem so. The underlying problem remains but they worked, or at least enough of them did.

A couple of fresh technical problems occurred:

- 1:12 thrusters on the crew module failed. This is different than the prior 5:28 failed thrusters on the service module. Reminder: the service module was jettisoned and burned up … so no hands-on analysis of the 5:28 thrusters is possible. Rocketdyne has some ‘splaining to do.

- There was a (recoverable) nav system glitch during reentry.
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 Post subject: Re: Boeing Starliner: 80 Problems
PostPosted: 11 Sep 2024, 07:40 
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Username Protected wrote:
A couple of fresh technical problems occurred:

NASA is becoming less and less tolerant of this nonsense. I doubt that they are going to allow another crewed flight until these issues are resolved. Meanwhile Boeing, ever the petulant child and bleeding billions on this project, is beginning to make noises that sound like they may be packing up their marbles.

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 Post subject: Re: Boeing Starliner: 80 Problems
PostPosted: 16 Sep 2024, 16:45 
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 Post subject: Re: Boeing Starliner: 80 Problems
PostPosted: 17 Sep 2024, 08:18 
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This project should be canceled.
It will not achieve the goal of the original contract provide redundant access to ISS.
There are not more atlas 5 rockets available for additional missions beyond the ones contracted for.

Boeing has also publicly said it will not pursue a follow on contract.

Only question at this point is how much $ Boeing is on the hook for.

Since Boeing is in a world of financial hurt and the U.S. gov sees them as an important military contractor there will be immense pressure to not further damage them financially.

My prediction is that they will get paid some obscene amount of $ to close down the program and they will never fly again.


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 Post subject: Re: Boeing Starliner: 80 Problems
PostPosted: 17 Sep 2024, 09:01 
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I disagree with any fears of hurting them financially. This is a company that managed to spend $43B on stock buybacks over the last decade, while making mistake after mistake in engineering and manufacturing.

I think there should be some attempt at clawbacks for the money the taxpayers poured down this rathole. If you prefer, let them pay it back in cruise missiles instead of cash.


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 Post subject: Re: Boeing Starliner: 80 Problems
PostPosted: 17 Sep 2024, 10:03 
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I think there should be some attempt at clawbacks for the money the taxpayers poured down this rathole. If you prefer, let them pay it back in cruise missiles instead of cash.

Pay back what? This was a fixed price contract. As long as they deliver according to the contract they have satisfied it. They are already out of pocket by over a billion dollars. Every launch will put them deeper into the red. I would expect NASA to insist that they fly whatever flights the contract calls for and then they can walk away.

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 Post subject: Re: Boeing Starliner: 80 Problems
PostPosted: 17 Sep 2024, 10:06 
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Username Protected wrote:
This project should be canceled.
It will not achieve the goal of the original contract provide redundant access to ISS.
There are not more atlas 5 rockets available for additional missions beyond the ones contracted for.

Boeing has also publicly said it will not pursue a follow on contract.

Only question at this point is how much $ Boeing is on the hook for.

Since Boeing is in a world of financial hurt and the U.S. gov sees them as an important military contractor there will be immense pressure to not further damage them financially.

My prediction is that they will get paid some obscene amount of $ to close down the program and they will never fly again.



Or...... Boeing sells its defense arm (BDS)?

I could see that amputation happening within a year or so.


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 Post subject: Re: Boeing Starliner: 80 Problems
PostPosted: 17 Sep 2024, 10:13 
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Or...... Boeing sells its defense arm (BDS)?

I could see that amputation happening within a year or so.

That may be their only profitable division, I’d expect it to be the last to go.

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 Post subject: Re: Boeing Starliner: 80 Problems
PostPosted: 17 Sep 2024, 10:44 
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Username Protected wrote:
Or...... Boeing sells its defense arm (BDS)?

I could see that amputation happening within a year or so.

That may be their only profitable division, I’d expect it to be the last to go.


Eh, and I wouldn't really call it profitable.... I think BDS had $1.8bil in losses last year.

IIRC, Global Services is their only money maker at $3.3bil last year.

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 Post subject: Re: Boeing Starliner: 80 Problems
PostPosted: 17 Sep 2024, 12:02 
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Pay back what? This was a fixed price contract. As long as they deliver according to the contract they have satisfied it.

that's the point. Can they deliver per the contract? Or will the space station will be at the bottom of the ocean first?


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 Post subject: Re: Boeing Starliner: 80 Problems
PostPosted: 17 Sep 2024, 21:15 
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Maybe they could pay the SpaceX folks to fix it. Boeing moved HQ to Chicago and it went to crap!

The closer an executive is to final production the better it usually will be. Gulfstream’s CEO sits, or used to sit, in an office building connected to the hangar. Bill Boisture and sometimes he and his EA Stephanie used to walk the floor. He was all business but a nice guy when he visited, like a retired COL. She was wonderful and kind. He would be on the floor daily and usually walked through the cafeteria and sometimes sat with the blue shirts when he wasn’t out of the office with customers.

The operations managers worked the floor occasionally. The engineers were there for even simple things like the first gear operations, electrical wiring, and engine tests. They were also on shakedown flights. The IAs were on test maintenance flights they signed off.

Boeing needs to hire an engineer, pilot/astronaut, and businessperson like Boisture to be CEO. It needs to be someone willing to fly in their aircraft or at least put the chief engineer or COO, health permitting, in the aircraft.

Disclaimer - I have held Boeing stock and likely still hold it in a mutual fund or funds. I am not soliciting anyone to invest or divest.


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 Post subject: Re: Boeing Starliner: 80 Problems
PostPosted: 18 Sep 2024, 05:41 
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Username Protected wrote:
That may be their only profitable division, I’d expect it to be the last to go.


Eh, and I wouldn't really call it profitable.... I think BDS had $1.8bil in losses last year.

IIRC, Global Services is their only money maker at $3.3bil last year.


Bingo. BDS lost money on Starliner, the KC-46, and a host of other programs. They may at some point make money on the F-15EX, but then again, they may not; it depends on how well they execute.

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 Post subject: Re: Boeing Starliner: 80 Problems
PostPosted: 18 Sep 2024, 10:27 
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Pay back what? This was a fixed price contract. As long as they deliver according to the contract they have satisfied it.

that's the point. Can they deliver per the contract? Or will the space station will be at the bottom of the ocean first?

But what you're writing suggests that they were paid up front. Maybe I'm mis-reading you, but I don't think it works that way. My understanding is that the contract (feel free to dig through it, TL:DR) has certain milestones that the contractor must successfully reach, and they are paid an agreed amount at the completion of those milestones, and then once fully certified, they are paid a fixed, per-flight amount for each required flight thereafter (2 minimum, 6 maximum). I suspect that Boeing is substantially out of pocket at this point because their costs to get to the milestones so far, has far exceeded the contracted price. The next milestone that they are trying to reach is crewed flight and (presumably) final certification, so I don't think they've received that money yet either. Like any contract there are clauses for non-compliance, so if they are unable to meet the final milestone, they wouldn't get paid, and NASA would have the option to terminate the contract, which would explain why Boeing keeps digging their hole deeper; they are hoping to get the rest of the contract money to reduce their losses.
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 Post subject: Re: Boeing Starliner: 80 Problems
PostPosted: 18 Sep 2024, 10:44 
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Boeing's internal disconnects are pretty clear if they were unable to price this job correctly.

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