This has nothing to do with the 421 vs Duke and I know I'm not the average GA traveler.

I've done 2 1000nm+ one way trips this year with 4 more to go this year. Plus a couple 700nm one way trips with at least 4 more on the schedule. Along with some where around 10 trips one way of 200-300nm and several of those to go also.

I wish I could get 200 more lbs of useful load in my baron. Its got all the room and all the speed I need but if I could add my typical load plus another 1-1.5 hrs of fuel would make my day!

So far my longest non stop had been 800nm in 4.5hrs. My longest time in the air was 5 hrs fighting a huge headwind (80kts tapering down to 30) taking me all of 640nm.

Planning to fly non stop from my place in Iowa to Miami next Friday. Its 1080nm and 6 hrs no wind. So if I can get a little help from a tail wind I will make a new long distance record for myself!

Matt, do you have your family on these long non stop flights? My wife and kids will ride four hours in the 421 but only want 2 to 3 hour legs in the Baron. They love to fly with me as long as I keep them happy. So I make a few extra stops and our flying experience is more enjoyable. When I am alone it's a different story and I will fly the extra long legs.

Yes family on board. But the kids are only 3 & 1. So the 1 yr old gets diaper changes. The 3 year old uses a fold up potta potty, along with the wife .

This 6 hr run (crossing my fingers) is kinda an exception. They don't mind 4 hrs at all because it means non stop from home to see the sis in-law and that equates out to more time with family.

Oh yeah I should add the 58 club seating is great for the wife as she has face to face access to both kids. Can let them out of their seats and stretch a little. Plus she can stretch her feet out and put them on the seat directly across from her and then recline very comfortably.

All this tallk about a 421 got me fired up to go check one out. I spent some time at Griffin Aviation in Tulsa OK. He is a real big fan of the 421 and is also a fan of the 425 (Conquest). He has a few of both for sale.

After seeing both planes, I am leaning towards the Conquest. Some more fuel burn, better speed and great climb. Seems like the cost is about the same for either plane to maintain and about $200K more initial purchase price.. Am I missing something?

There's a mandatory SID on the 425, IIRC. Make sure that's been done or the price factored in, as it's a 6-figure repair from what I vaguely recall.

Per an article in Flying magazine: If you do all phases of the 425 SID inspection at once, it's 940 hours (for the inspection; any repair time for discrepancies uncovered is on top of that).

David,

No, you are not missing anything. If you are going to spend $250k+ buy a Conquest or Cheyenne. Yes, they will still cost more to run, but they burn Kerosene which makes them more reliable and losing an engine results in an inconvenience instead of an emergency. Your Colemill Baron will climb as good on one engine as a 421 will on two. The 421s are still bringing decent money because they have a great cabin, but as 100LL gets more expensive they will eventually be worth zero. Buy a turbine or buy a Duke. You start closer to $0 with the Duke. You will live longer in the turbine.

David,

No, you are not missing anything. If you are going to spend $250k+ buy a Conquest or Cheyenne. Yes, they will still cost more to run, but they burn Kerosene which makes them more reliable and losing an engine results in an inconvenience instead of an emergency. Your Colemill Baron will climb as good on one engine as a 421 will on two. The 421s are still bringing decent money because they have a great cabin, but as 100LL gets more expensive they will eventually be worth zero. Buy a turbine or buy a Duke. You start closer to $0 with the Duke. You will live longer in the turbine.

Todd,
I love my colemill baron and still can't hardly think anything is better. This 421 just seems like a nice cabin class twin. I think you are close to right on the climbout. At least in actual experience. I don't know about the book numbers but I seem to climb out at 1500-2000 pretty easy for most of my climbs with two people. From what I was told by jerry the 421 seems pretty happy to climb at 800 fpm. but it hardlly makes a lot of difference how loaded the plane is. The 425(conquest) seems to perform more like my baron at 15-2000fpm climb rate.
Now with grandkids, I think I want the extra seats to include more family. Then again I might only need two seats ,maybe a 150. and just fly away. Crazy thoughts like that come to me everyonce in a while.
I am thinking I want to get away from the piston market and go turboprop, but I have a lot more studying to do.

David, Todd said your Baron would climb on "ONE" engine better than a 421c would do on two engines. Your Baron is 300 to 500 FPM SE. 421C at gross 7450 is 800 FPM at 135kts IAS which is 450 pounds heavier than a Duke. 425 is a great plane but it's 1200 per hour.

David,

You are a naturally good stick and would have no problem flying a Turboprop anything. They are so much more airplane than a 421. The 421 is a great airframe and bad engines - just like the Duke. Both planes are underpowered. Lose an engine in you Colemill at gross on a 90-degree day at 10 below blue line and you will climb out 500+ FPM while accelerating to blue line. Lose one in a 421 or a Duke and steer for open land and hope you can make positive rate. Lose one in a turbine and the autofeather will kick in and you have virtually nothing other to do than get out your wallet.

I have decided not to play the turbo/pressurized twin game anymore. Anyway you look at it a 421, Duke, etc is $600+/hr with proper maintenance figuring 75 hours per year or so. It is not worth $50k per year, time taken off for training, working on the plane myself, and hoping nothing breaks when I fly it to have the convenience to take 4-5 people somewhere. Instead, I am going to try the Glasair III for my and my son (who really likes flying.) It will do 215 knots on 13 GPH, no training needed, full glass touchscreen panel with digital autopilot, and dirt simple systems. Maybe $125/hr figuring fuel, maintenance, etc all in. The other two can ride the airlines or we will all take the train or a ship.

Like I said, if you are going to get into a piston twin / pressurized the Duke makes all the sense in the world. Defer all the maintenance you can and figure it a "throwaway plane" in 10 years. You could probably get by for $400 per hour or so if you just did the absolute minimum; otherwise, buy a turbine and keep it nice. Throwing big money into a a big piston twin is like throwing it into the fire.

I have carried three females and everything they pack in my Aerostar just over 1000 NM in five hours headed west against the prevailing winds. I have opened up the throttle and poured out the gas and from my home base to Florida (~550 NM) in under 2 hours with a nice tailwind (250 KTAS in the mid twenty FL).

If you really are going to be flying that far, 421C, Aerostar and T-Bones are the way to go if staying with pistons.

Tim

For what I am looking at, anything with piston engines just doesn't seem to be enough better than my Colemill Baron.

Sure, bigger cabin and pressurization, but for the cost, it just doesn't feel right. I would keep my plane before I would spend the money, however, my opportunity to advance to a turbine might be coming up this year and I would like to think the Conquest would be the pick for me. for some reason the C90 just does not seem a fit for me.

I am afraid the timed phases will catch me before my flying will. I will probably end up in the 75 hours per year with the faster speed and i feel the C90 is just to involved.

You are exactly where I was a year ago. The Baron just wasn't "enough" airplane for my family. It held everything we could put in it and was safe, but it still was a little tight in the cabin and without pressurization it was tough to get above the weather. I was trying to provide airline comfort in a plane not built to do so. The Duke was great, but for the fuel burn it just was not enough plane and I worried about being stuck somewhere just because it was old and complex just like any old complex twin. Then comes the F90. Screaming deal, great plane, and dirt simple to fly. Unfortunately, nearly 80 GPH and parts prices starting with 5 figures brought reality to who I am and what I could afford.

Going forward, my kids are getting older and one will be in college in a year. The other likes to fly with me in small fast or fun planes and the wife wants the shortest trip possible. I will be living in FL in a few years and will need a traveling machine that is efficient for me and maybe my wife to go back to Indiana every few months. My days will be flexible by then, so de-ice and pressurization will not be needed. Efficiency, speed, and reliability (think newer airplane) is what I will need. Beech really needs to come up with something different. While the Bonanza is great and the Baron is wonderful as well, both are 50+ year old designs and do not incorporate anything revolutionary. No Parachute, no single engine controls, and no new engines. They need a clean slate design with a engine burning JetA and a chute. Maybe even fixed gear. Cirrus is literally running away with the market and the other manufacturers keep producing the same old design. That is great is you sell new Cubs or Champs, not so much if you are trying to sell a hot and efficient single or twin.

T

Todd, that sums up my current dilemma. In addition, I need the room for luggage.

Please clarify a few things. Isn't the 58P and 58TC life limited at 10,000 hours? How about the Duke? We have a 421 in our family but it doesn't fly like a Beech and I fly it solo 80% of the time. There is a huge difference with the hourly cost of the 421 and the Baron. Beech needs a smaller single engine turbine ala Pilatus.

Alberto, they are life limited, but it does not matter. Most 58Ps/TCs have less than 5k hours on them. The average owner probably flies them less than 100 hours per year. That leaves 50 years of useful life. It won't matter by then. Also, I think a smaller single turbine slightly bigger than the A36 would be exceptional. It also needs to be $750k. Yeah, yeah, I know - that is not possible! Well, it is time we make it possible as I am not paying $750k for an unpressurized piston single.