Nate,

I think you need to clarify that you are speaking as Nate Jaros and not on behalf of the USAF and that your comments are speculative in nature. Maybe I am wrong and you were on the Accident Investigation Board but I don't think so. If I recall, you are not currently flying fighters but you are flying Remote Piloted Aircraft.

To clarify a bit further. Although the Alaska accident resulted in an oxygen system eventually not working, the oxygen system did not fail as Nate states. Another system on the aircraft failed and the second or third order effect from that system failing is that the oxygen system did not work. Semantics but details do matter. The F-22 has emergency procedures to handle this situation and in the Accident Boards opinion, the pilot failed to properly apply those procedures. That is what the board determined which the CSAF later disagreed with. So to say that the AF is trying to cover up the issue is wrong. When the CSAF of the AF publicly disagrees with an Accident Boards report you know that will get attention and to me does not indicate that the AF is trying to cover up anything.

Clearly the USAF and Lockheed Martin have a serious issue with the F-22. Nobody is trying to hide that. However, in the opinion of the commanders and AF leadership, they have applied procedures to reduce the risk enough to allow flying the aircraft further. Not everybody agrees with that decision and in the case of the two pilots on 60 mins, they elected not to fly which is their call. But to say that commanders are turning their heads and looking the other way is just flat out false. This has the utmost attention at the highest levels from Maintenance Commanders to Ops Sq Commanders all the way to the CSAF.

Believe what you want, share your opinion, but be careful to clarify that it is just that, your opinion.

Safe flying

Glen

Nate: I totally agree with you and would not want to be on your side of the fence. This reminds me of the V22 Osprey program that killed so many. Maybe all this attention will encourage the brass to find the problem & solution.

Sir,

I am of course speaking as Nate Jaros and NOT the USAF. I think folks get that here. But I'm also not afraid to voice my opinion on the matter. No, my opinion isn't gospel, it's my opinion. And from what I've heard and Raptor pilots I have PERSONALLY spoken with...commanders ARE indeed looking the other way and afraid to 'ring the bell' for fear of...well, who knows what!

(not speculative part) The accident report that the deceased pilot, while grossly hypoxic due to the jet malfunction, while in a dive at excessive speeds (500 kts +) should have had the cognisance and agility to pull his green apple emer O2. Not going to happen. Sir, please talk to some Raptor guys and see what they say about physically reaching the emer O2 while strapped in...nearly impossible. Yet after that, they still origionally blamed the pilot, then like you said, later the Chief of Staff retracted the decision.

Lastly, yes I am flying UAVs. But a guy with 1200+ hrs in fighters, 600+ IP T-38 and 440 combat...is a fighter pilot. In fact, a guy who completes fighter training and gets CMR (combat mission ready) status is a fighter pilot in most people's books.

Not sure why it matters what I'm flying now...but either way I have an opinion and a voice here on this subject.

Here we see that these guys will be protected. It's okay to speak out...and YES there is a problem with the F-22...my opinion.

http://www.wtae.com/news/national/F-22- ... index.html

Oh, and I was wrong earlier...its not 3 reports...its 25 reports of hypoxia-like symptoms!!! Yet in the last line of the article "Lt. Gen. Janet Wolfenbarger told the Senate Armed Services subcommittee, [we] believe that we are safe to fly."

YGBSM

Sir,

I am of course speaking as Nate Jaros and NOT the USAF. I think folks get that here. But I'm also not afraid to voice my opinion on the matter. No, my opinion isn't gospel, it's my opinion. And from what I've heard and Raptor pilots I have PERSONALLY spoken with...commanders ARE indeed looking the other way and afraid to 'ring the bell' for fear of...well, who knows what!

(not speculative part) The accident report that the deceased pilot, while grossly hypoxic due to the jet malfunction, while in a dive at excessive speeds (500 kts +) should have had the cognisance and agility to pull his green apple emer O2. Not going to happen. Sir, please talk to some Raptor guys and see what they say about physically reaching the emer O2 while strapped in...nearly impossible. Yet after that, they still origionally blamed the pilot, then like you said, later the Chief of Staff retracted the decision.

Lastly, yes I am flying UAVs. But a guy with 1200+ hrs in fighters, 600+ IP T-38 and 440 combat...is a fighter pilot. In fact, a guy who completes fighter training and gets CMR (combat mission ready) status is a fighter pilot in most people's books.

Not sure why it matters what I'm flying now...but either way I have an opinion and a voice here on this subject.

These military planes are in a whole different league than our simple GA machines. The F22 pushes the limits of human flight and technology. It is beyond my ability to understand what hundreds of capable dedicated systems engineers haven't been able to resolve.

I wish the USAF all the best in finding a speedy solution to this issue.

I've worked with these guys. Sometimes the trees are blocking the forest for these guys.

...as a former Army Officer, an Infantryman from back in the Cold War Days, I find the actions of the AF pilots that appeared on 60 minutes to be quite disturbing...for them to appear in uniform whining about their aircraft is conduct unbecoming in my view...and 60 minutes no doubt--an organization that is just loving any opportunity to throw the military or the big bad "military industrial complex" under the bus

my advice to the AF pilots that appeared on 60 minutes would be to hack it or pack it...work Within Your Chain Of Command to identify the problems with the aircraft and fly it safely to the best of your ability...if that doesn't suit you--then resign your Commission...amazing that they would appear In Uniform...and then, once they made the decision to appear in uniform, they wore their flight suits as opposed to Class A's that you would suspect one would wear if appearing on nation wide TV; not to mention the one dude's mustache was clearly out of regulation...and, please, these are commissioned officers--spare me with all the "whistle blower" protection b.s.

and, with all due respect, I'm not buying the argument that the AF leadership is turning their back on this problem--looks like the leadership has been quite candid in the attempt to identify the problems...part of the solution might be to continue to fly the aircraft to identify and work out the problems--can't do that if the AF pilots are spending all their time complaining on 60 minutes...

but in any event, can't have junior officers in the AF, or any Branch, dictating "policy"...if the AF says the plane is "operable" then saddle up and fly it to the best of your ability--or turn in your Commission...it really is that simple from my perspective...imagine the ramifications otherwise

I bet our Infantrymen in the 101ST Airborne at the D-Day invasion would have liked better "equipment"--didn't see them balking at those Gliders that some of them came across the Channel in--and those old Glider Aircraft didn't look too stable and durable to be sitting in all the while taking enemy rounds in the middle of the night looking for somewhere to safely land

Sir,

Thank you for your kind comments. I agree, you are correct that I did not state the facts quite perfectly. For that I am sorry. But the O2 system did fail (at 51,000+ MSL)...as a result of other aircraft system emergencies. Let's have a look...

For anyone keeping up, here is a copy of the accident report.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/75789619/F-22CrashReport

It is eyewatering and grim in many ways. Here are a few key points from the report that I found interesting and useful.

"The MA (mishap Aircraft) climbed to a maximum altitude of 51,720 ft MSL, crossed the MFL’s (mishap Flight Lead's) projected flight path and then began a descent to the north."
"At 19:42:18L the fire protection system (FPS) detected a bleed air leak in the center bleed airducting from both engines. the following functions were lost:1) ECS 2) Air Cycle System (ACS) forced air cooling 3) On-board oxygen generating system (OBOGS)4) On-board inert gas generating system (OBIGGS)5) Cabin pressure"

So at 51,000 ft he possibly loses cabin pressure and definitely loses oxygen. Sure, it wasnt an "O2" problem as I previously stated. But that's like saying the iceberg didn't cause the Titanic to sink...the Captain did. Bottom line, the board thinks the pilot did neglect his attitude while attempting to get emer O2 flowing, and possibly was losing consciousness the whole time.

"After 19:43:08L, there were no stick inputs and only very minor pedal inputs for the next 15 seconds. At 19:43:13L, passing approximately 19,000 ft MSL, a CABIN PRESSURE caution ICAW asserted based on cockpit pressurization exceeding its normal schedule. (Tab J-13)"
"The MP was wearing CAT III cold weather gear and NVGs during the MS. (Tab H-53 throughH-58) Ground simulation demonstrated reduced mobility in the cockpit due to the bulkiness of CAT III gear. Additionally, the NVGs hit the canopy, interfering with the pilot’s ability to look from side to side and down at the consoles. In order to obtain head/canopy clearance, the pilothad to shift his torso by bracing himself on various areas in the cockpit. (Tab CC-5) These bracing actions and limited tactile sensation due to the CAT III gear demonstrated howinadvertent flight control inputs could occur."
"By preponderance of the evidence, I also find organizational training issues, inadvertent operations, personal equipment interference, and controls/switches were factors that substantially contributed to the mishap."

So the O2 wasn't the true cause...but in my opinion, it was the systems in the jet that failed the O2 for him. Semantics.

Thanks Nate.

While the report does not fault the O2 system as the primary failure, it definitely illustrates how critical the precise operation of that system is.

If I am reading this correctly, from initial warning to impact he had 67 seconds. 67 seconds from alarm to recognition to comprehension to action with restricted air/oxygen to the mask occurring at 19 sec.

Now, what if he was even mildly hypoxic before this event began?

I agree with the previous post. A pulse oximeter for the pilot to self monitor doesn't cut it. There should be full monitoring and data capture for analysis and testing.

This was on the CBS(60 Minutes) news tonight...they seemed to report it with a certain...smugness.

"Defense secretary restricts flights of F-22 Raptors"

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-f ... 5053.story

Donald,

So the pilots "whining about their jets" after losing a brother due to its inadaquacies...are wrong? You are quite ignorant about military flight ops and the severity of the issues at hand.

Guess if there is a problem they should just shut up and color? Forget that there have been 25 separate O2 incidents! 25!

Huh, guess the SECDEF must feel the issue is whining too as he just restricted flight ops for Billions of dollars worth of assets. Your observations are grossly wrong sir.

"So the pilots "whining about their jets" after losing a brother due to its inadaquacies...are wrong? You are quite ignorant about military flight ops and the severity of the issues at hand"

--Nate, I think your missing the nature of my observations...admittedly, I don't have that much knowledge of military flight ops, but I'm hardly ignorant of same either... but what I am sure of is that I do know alot about the military...certainly enough to know that AF pilots in uniform currently on active duty or on active status with National Guard should not appear on liberal anti-military T.V. shows to throw the A.F. or their jets under the bus...and, while I certainly understand the pilots are upset about the loss of their brothers in arms that doesn't excuse their actions to act outside the chain of command...most senior AF leadership comments I've seen certainly agree with me on this aspect...the fact that the planes are now grounded, again, isn't germane to whether pilots should or should not act outside their chain of command

--"whining" might be considered a poor choice of words from your perspective, but from my perspective I was in total shock seeing these pilots chatting it up with the CBS liberal anti military biased reporter...what next, live reports from overseas of Army Officers refusing to deploy on convoy missions because the armor on their vehicles are inadequate...

--indeed, not taking anything away from the serious nature of the problems in the jet, the pilots appearing on national T.V. violated operational security--and national security...it is one thing to voice your opinions thru the chain of command...it is totally different to proclaim to the world that, according to the pilots on T.V., that the majority of our fighter pilots that fly the F-22 don't have full confidence in the aircraft...wow, just wow...

Donald,

Wow. Lots of accusations in those paragraphs.

Just a couple questions: I assume the guys that went on TV already tried going up the chain of command. Don't you think that's true?

And, I would say that the current restrictions placed on the flights of the F-22s do have something to do with what happened on 60 Minutes last week. The "whistle-blowing" had the desired effect.

I would suppose these guys (no doubt representing some of the other pilots) already tried the chain of command, then made the decision to be "whistle-blowers", and then the politicians got involved and called the Pentagon ....and the flight restrictions were instituted. Perhaps they'll now find what's wrong; that will be a good thing.

Trust me, EVERY minor event in military flight ops gets briefed up the chain of command. From hangar rash to crashes, it all gets vetted. It's just sad that it took 25 seperate incidents (all going up the chain), and a pilot paying the ultimate price for the senior leadership to "get it."

Call it whining, call it bitching...but if after 25 incidents and a casualty...what would you do? 60 minutes may look pretty good then when the commanders just say "shut up and fly."

What they did needed to be done, and said by all pilots. These guys are brave for what they did on TV, some might even call them heroes if it saves a life.