So the 501 is the direct comparison to a 441. I looked hard that them when I was researching my upgrade from the SR22 (I regularly use 8 seats, 4 of them kids now aged 10-15). Yes, they are very fuel efficient but a 441 is a full $1M more than a 501. That killed the deal for me. I can buy a LOT of Jet-A for $1M.

Yes, the type rating is a thing but you should be doing annual training anyway. I'm actually doing my 61.58 right now. Cost is $4,015 for the instructor, $3,000 for the DPE, plus fuel. That will probably run me about $3,000 so right at $10,000 for the whole thing.

An MU-2 or Commander would be much closer in cost and I looked at them too. The MU-2 more-so because ICJS is local to me so I would have service covered. At the end of the day, 2 things killed the MU-2 for me. One of them was dealing with fueling. Every line person I talked to HATES fueling MU-2s and it felt like you had to supervise fueling. With the Citation I give them my fuel order over the phone and it's done when I get there. During pre-flight I open the 2 fuel caps, verify fuel, re-secure the caps, done. Plus I don't need a ladder to verify the fuel caps are on. The other thing is that jets are simply easier to fly. You have more power that is closer to the centerline and you don't have big whirling paddles out there to catch the wind (that also need maintenance). In my plane you can fail an engine and the autopilot doesn't even kick off. Stalls are as benign as a 172. For me, I decided that the 501 was the safest thing I could fly myself and my family in, bar none. At the end of the day, burning more fuel in order to increase safety was an easy decision.

Now as to the subject of the thread.... I don't track my costs because I don't want to know. It's a toy for me and so as long as I can feed it I will fly it. I am heavily involved in my maintenance and actively assist with every inspection and repair. I source used parts whenever I can. I have a lot of fun doing that and I am fortunate that my job allows me to spend parts of my work day at the airport and then I can make up that time on evenings and weekends. I also have an excellent mechanic on-field that not only lets me help he only charges $100/hr. He is mostly supported by a couple of corporate customers who have him on retainer and he does other work when he's not working on their stuff. So he's cheap and good but the corporates come first so sometimes I get pushed. But again, it's a toy so I'm fine to trade fast for cheap and good.

I recently wrapped up a Phase 1-4 (3-year inspection) so once my mechanic gets me the paperwork (did I mention he was good and cheap? ) I will post the cost either here or in Mike C's Citation V expenses thread.

We have a pool of pilots in our roster and can cover 99 percent of trip requests. We have a great system down, it's not for everybody, but it works well for us and our clients. It's a relationship that works both ways and I'm proud of what we've built.

You can buy a lot of fuel with the interest saved on not borrowing $1M, or the income from investing the $1M, particularly under current circumstances.

There is a lot of "cost" in hull value, much of it invisible so not properly measured, but it is a cost none the less.

Mike C.

I could retire to WV or TX and live off the interest investing $1M! Now, SWMBO would have to work so we still have good health insurance.

It would be interesting to see the numbers that some of the folks flying gently used Citations sub-$1M or Sub-$1.5M versus a $2.7M - $3M B200 or $1.5-$1.9M F90 are seeing.

I am guessing that the operating costs are around $1100-$1500/hr single pilot. KingAir ramp fees seem to be about the same as the smaller CitationJet though some FBOs hear "Jet" and the price goes up another $250 even though the KingAir B200 is a bit chunkier when fully loaded. CJ is 11K pounds and B200 is hovering around 12.5K pounds IIRC.

Where is Crandall and his Pilatypus information? Didn't he switch over from PC-12 to CitationJet recently? I follow his social media and Amberley's social media from time to time but didn't plunk down the AMU Satoshi for CJ Pilots. My favorite picture is Crandall's picture next to 525 Foxtrot Uniform. That N number seems fitting for him but I don't think it's his. I miss his posts and his expertise on here and it certainly would be fitting! ...unless you price in the new hangar he's building.

A fine opportunity for you to share total expense and total hours flown for your 680V.

I have seen more than a few situations where the turboprops are charged more for ramp and parking than light jets.

If you think about it, it makes sense. The jet is going to buy more fuel so you will make more money from them in total, and they are less dangerous on the ramp.

For example, at KSAT Millionaire, Beechjet 400 is $120 per day, King Air 200 is $150 per day. Even weirder, the Beechjet minimum to waive a ramp fee is 120 gallons, King Air 200 is 150 gallons. Go figure.


He bought a CJ4 around 2020. N941KD.


He joined CJP in 2020 and then left less than 2 years later.

Mike C.

I thought ramp fees would be crazy with the Jet but hasn’t been that bad. With CAA you get a good deal, really worth it.

There are a few places that I have called that had crazy rates so I didn’t go there. Had to stop and pick up some friends at Sacramento executive and called to get cost. They wanted like $400 to stop and pick up two people. Or buy 150 gallons at $8 a gallon. I said no thanks and parked at the parking by the tower which was free. I loaded enough fuel so I didn’t have to get any there. That’s a nice thing about a plane that has long range.

I rarely pay high ramp fees.

Mike

So the 501 is the direct comparison to a 441. I looked hard that them when I was researching my upgrade from the SR22 (I regularly use 8 seats, 4 of them kids now aged 10-15). Yes, they are very fuel efficient but a 441 is a full $1M more than a 501. That killed the deal for me. I can buy a LOT of Jet-A for $1M.

Yes, the type rating is a thing but you should be doing annual training anyway. I'm actually doing my 61.58 right now. Cost is $4,015 for the instructor, $3,000 for the DPE, plus fuel. That will probably run me about $3,000 so right at $10,000 for the whole thing.

An MU-2 or Commander would be much closer in cost and I looked at them too. The MU-2 more-so because ICJS is local to me so I would have service covered. At the end of the day, 2 things killed the MU-2 for me. One of them was dealing with fueling. Every line person I talked to HATES fueling MU-2s and it felt like you had to supervise fueling. With the Citation I give them my fuel order over the phone and it's done when I get there. During pre-flight I open the 2 fuel caps, verify fuel, re-secure the caps, done. Plus I don't need a ladder to verify the fuel caps are on. The other thing is that jets are simply easier to fly. You have more power that is closer to the centerline and you don't have big whirling paddles out there to catch the wind (that also need maintenance). In my plane you can fail an engine and the autopilot doesn't even kick off. Stalls are as benign as a 172. For me, I decided that the 501 was the safest thing I could fly myself and my family in, bar none. At the end of the day, burning more fuel in order to increase safety was an easy decision.

Now as to the subject of the thread.... I don't track my costs because I don't want to know. It's a toy for me and so as long as I can feed it I will fly it. I am heavily involved in my maintenance and actively assist with every inspection and repair. I source used parts whenever I can. I have a lot of fun doing that and I am fortunate that my job allows me to spend parts of my work day at the airport and then I can make up that time on evenings and weekends. I also have an excellent mechanic on-field that not only lets me help he only charges $100/hr. He is mostly supported by a couple of corporate customers who have him on retainer and he does other work when he's not working on their stuff. So he's cheap and good but the corporates come first so sometimes I get pushed. But again, it's a toy so I'm fine to trade fast for cheap and good.

I recently wrapped up a Phase 1-4 (3-year inspection) so once my mechanic gets me the paperwork (did I mention he was good and cheap? ) I will post the cost either here or in Mike C's Citation V expenses thread.

We have a guy that does our recurrent in the plane for $3500. Obviously there is fuel and plane time but it’s not $14k

That’s the thing here. There are ways to own a jet that are less than everyone thinks.

It’s not that it takes a lot of time. Just have to know the right people with the experience.

If you just pay the normal high price for everything yes it’s expensive but that’s not necessary.

I have yet to see Chip chime in with a way to save money on jet ownership. He only fights the fight that jets are crazy expensive and that’s just the way it is. He wants to argue with the guys that are doing it cheaper. Bizarre.

The legacy Jet community is strong and very helpful. Tarver is a major part of that but there are many others like Mike C that want guys like me to save money and have a great ownership experience.

The real comparison is owning a plane and just doing whatever the service center and guys like Chip say to do. Or owning a plane that has a community of knowledgeable guys that will help you save money and solve problems.

My bet is most on BT would prefer the latter. I don’t see too many guys on here that just blindly write checks.

Mike

Musical chairs, turbine edition... how much will the next guy pay?

Another aspect that is not
Mentioned here is the ability to dry lease.

I had $160k of revenue from dry leases in the last 12 months. It’s been easy for me to find dry lease guys. They all say they would never fly on a prop plane. And they mean any prop plane.

One of my dry lease guys just bought half my plane. I have been leasing to him for over a year so already know him. Works out amazing.

The ability to lease a jet opens up an entire new world. Wouldn’t happen with a Turboprop or at least not as easy.

Mike

What do you charge to dry lease?

and who flies it...

Could you share the delta in insurance premiums before and after adding the lease option?

I haven't forgotten, just busy, I've run the numbers and I just need to set down and type it all out.

I'll start off with the King Air B200 vs Citation V

I'm quite sure there will be a ton of "but this one is better" and "your numbers are BS"

I'm just making a direct comparison of two airplanes, both built in 1990 and of similar value. The V cost more to maintain, the engine reserves are higher and it burns a lot more fuel... but when you factor in the extra speed most of the difference goes away, the Citation does in 140 hours what it takes the King Air 200 miles to do, the annual numbers for the same number of miles flown get pretty close, but when you factor in that the Citation V has one more seat and you look at cost per seat mile, it wins. AND... that's without fancy math, leaving engine reserves out or owner involved maintenance. It doesn't factor in the LUMP program either.

It's also important to note that things like engine HSI / TBO are further out because of the speed, and airframe hours don't accumulate as fast. The Citation is over 25% faster, so if you flew 3 million miles in both, the Citation would have 7800TT and two engine overhauls... the King Air would have 10,800TT and THREE engine overhauls!

Note- I am doing fast math here, I'm going for speed not accuracy, so I apologize in advance for any mistakes!