I agree 100% Mike - local Maint changes the game. Unfortunately those options continue to drop at home base.

Engine reserves are also a capital cost for most owners. Your engine times determine what the market will pay for your airplane when you sell it.

So, a separate category, then, per your guidance.

It is all in how you tilt the scales to make it come out how you want it.

The only true measure is all money in, all money out, what did it cost. Anything else is being delusional.

For me, my V has cost me negative dollars to operate it since I could sell it now for more than all the money I have put into it, including fuel.

And that brings me to another point, depreciation. Buy a newer plane, you suffer that more. Buy a more expensive airplane and you have far more downside risk. With high interest rates, all money is losing value if sunk into an airplane versus in investments (or not being used to pay interest).

Newer being cheaper to operate only works when you are purposefully blind to the other costs involved. This is why people are not lining up to buy new 172s and older ones are cheaper to operate all in. Same applies to jets, just bigger numbers.

Mike C.

I've always been able to fly an airplane one or two classes higher than others of similar means by being frugal and careful. I trade my time in carefully managing my airplane for my lack of excessive wealth.

Maybe your customers are the frivolous rich, but most people of means I know are careful with their money, too. That's how they got where they are.

I'd also expect people of the implied means you speak of to buy frax cards and not bother with all that icky stuff that comes with owning an actual airplane.

The owner operated, owner flown culture is just different from the "jet set" crowd.

Mike C.

I've always been able to fly an airplane one or two classes higher than others of similar means by being frugal and careful. I trade my time in carefully managing my airplane for my lack of excessive wealth.

Maybe your customers are the frivolous rich, but most people of means I know are careful with their money, too. That's how they got where they are.

I'd also expect people of the implied means you speak of to buy frax cards and not bother with all that icky stuff that comes with owning an actual airplane.

The owner operated, owner flown culture is just different from the "jet set" crowd.

Mike C.

So Mike C. What are your 200 hr figures? And how many man hours are you contributing?

Not sure what you are asking for.


Hard to measure, it was significant at the beginning when that was a lot for me to learn, tapering off as my knowledge increases and the plane is in better shape. At the start, every issue was a new thing to learn. The first 12 months saw so many things fixed, I've lost count.

Whatever my time investment was, the money I saved easily pays me a good return per hour. For example, I probably spent 6-8 hours on the RH hydraulic pump issue but that saved about $32K over doing what Textron suggested, which would involve a trip to a service center and thus might have been more time in the end. That's a $4K/hour wage, if you think of it that way. Other issues are may pay less, though. Sometimes it isn't about the money, but about fixing it the proper way.

I spend more time on BT than managing the plane, so I guess that proves I have the time.

Mike C.

So by 200 hr I ment your 200hr/yr costs like Cory put up. And if not used that much an estimate.

I really don’t have, or even want, the time. After crawling under 2 different VW bugs every 3000 miles for about 200,000 miles I’ve had enough. But being an engineer I would think this stuff gets you excited. I understand that. Get Tarver to sell one with a service contract and I get all in. After that 200 40 yr old actuators scare me pretty good.

So you'd rather be debugging things like FADECs, digital pressurization controllers, and other nasty digital doohickeys?

My plane is before all that stuff started coming online. The systems are straightforward and simple mechanically.


Then you need to have more money than time. You need to hire someone to manage the plane, and a pilot to ferry to/from maintenance, and send the plane to a high dollar shop. When that's all said and done, you would have been better off chartering or frax.

I'm committed to being my company's corporate pilot and aircraft manager. Without doing that, I would be relegated to travel by airlines, so I am motivated to make it happen.

Someday I'll add up my 2022 numbers. That was still in the start up phase, but will get some information. Maintenance has NOT been a major cost even so. Fuel dominates my expenses.

Mike C.

Then you need to have more money than time. You need to hire someone to manage the plane, and a pilot to ferry to/from maintenance, and send the plane to a high dollar shop. When that's all said and done, you would have been better off chartering or frax.

Mike C.

I am sure I am at least $200K ahead of taking the plane to a service center in the short time I have owned it.


Being different has never bothered me considering what passes for "standard" these days.


I don't have jet money, but I have jet time to make it work none the less. It seems odd to me that you can't do the same given this sort of thing is your business and you would have lots of travel involved.


Your job is a lot simpler than I thought it was, just follow the herd.

Mike C.

I am sure I am at least $200K ahead of taking the plane to a service center in the short time I have owned it.

Mike C.

It really is simple.

1. Find off market airplanes.
2. Make sure our clients don't get screwed.

Everything else we do is customer service.

Chip, have you received an invoice that you've had to pay with your money to any of the large shops? It's important to keep in mind you are conversing with people who have-

Peeking at client's invoices during a pre-buy event isn't going to be a representative example of an involved owner/operators savings over a multi year period

Chip, have you received an invoice that you've had to pay with your money to any of the large shops? It's important to keep in mind you are conversing with people who have-

Peeking at client's invoices during a pre-buy event isn't going to be a representative example of an involved owner/operators savings over a multi year period

I think the last sentence is key. I also think there is yet a smaller subset of owner operated that is owner involved maintenance. It's definitely not for everyone. Personally, helping out with the maintenance of my plane is really fun (yes, even when it's over 100 degrees). I also have the luxury of a job that allows me to work from anywhere and also to time shift my working hours. During maintenance I can work from the airport and then also catch up the time I missed during the day by working in the evening. So being involved in my maintenance doesn't involve downtime or lost income for me as it would other people. Yes, it involves missed time from my family when I have to work in the evenings but taking care of the plane has effectively become one of my hobbies and I treat it as such.

I have an experienced mechanic on field who lets me help. I also like being there as it is my and my family's lives that are on the line. When my mechanic finds corrosion we talk through the options. There is no cutting corners to get something out the door. For example, in Mike's case of the RTV being applied to pressurization control by Textron, if my mechanic tried that I would ask that it be replaced (then I would source the fittings and help with the repair). I also have the luxury that this is a recreational use plane so I can stand some downtime to make sure things are done correctly and as inexpensively as possible.

But again, it's not for everybody. It will really only work if you can turn it into a hobby that you enjoy.