06 May 2025, 04:27 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
|
Username Protected |
Message |
Username Protected
|
Post subject: Re: My crazy airplane idea and pitch.... Posted: 06 Oct 2021, 19:56 |
|
 |

|
|
 |
Joined: 01/30/09 Posts: 3614 Post Likes: +2261 Location: $ilicon Vall€y
Aircraft: Columbia 400
|
|
Username Protected wrote: About the best viable battery is 350 WH/Kg. When you add up the hydrogen tanks and the fuel cell to make it into electricity, what sort of energy density do you get? Numbers I see are around 500-600 WH/Kg, so a little bit better but not a real change in magnitude. Battery development might reach those levels at some point.
Hydrogen may win on refuel/recharge time, but it doesn't feel like it is changing the basic energy density issue.
For comparison, jet fuel is 11,900 WH/Kg. Even considering a hugely less efficient engine versus electric motor, that's still WAY more energy dense than any battery or hydrogen system.
Mike C. Hydrogen specific energy is 141 MJ/kg. While jet fuel is 42 MJ/kg, or about 3x greater for hydrogen. I think you may have your units confused though, Jet Fuel is about 11,900 WH/kg, but Hydrogen is 39,000 WH/kg, again, a little over 3x greater for hydrogen. (again hydrogen has the highest specific energy by mass) I suspect you mean to compare volume or energy density per volume (liter or gallons), where fossil fuels have about 10x the energy per volume. That means hydrogen takes up much more space. But no fuel has more energy per mass than hydrogen. Even decade-old research papers indicate commercially available hydrogen storage at 1400w/kg using composite storage tanks. I'm not arguing against fossil fuel powered airplanes. But I would estimate a fuel-cell powered electric airplane approaches an actually useful design, versus one based on rechargeable batteries, in range and payload capacity, not to mention the rapidity of refueling.
|
|
Top |
|
Username Protected
|
Post subject: Re: My crazy airplane idea and pitch.... Posted: 06 Oct 2021, 20:24 |
|
 |

|
|
Joined: 01/06/08 Posts: 5117 Post Likes: +2954
Aircraft: B55 P2
|
|
The energy density depends on whether you count the tanks. For avgas or jet fuel, the tank weight is small compared to the fuel weight. For hydrogen, the tank weight can be much larger than the fuel weight - except for large cryogenic tanks. Username Protected wrote: About the best viable battery is 350 WH/Kg. When you add up the hydrogen tanks and the fuel cell to make it into electricity, what sort of energy density do you get? Numbers I see are around 500-600 WH/Kg, so a little bit better but not a real change in magnitude. Battery development might reach those levels at some point.
Hydrogen may win on refuel/recharge time, but it doesn't feel like it is changing the basic energy density issue.
For comparison, jet fuel is 11,900 WH/Kg. Even considering a hugely less efficient engine versus electric motor, that's still WAY more energy dense than any battery or hydrogen system.
Mike C. Hydrogen specific energy is 141 MJ/kg. While jet fuel is 42 MJ/kg, or about 3x greater for hydrogen. I think you may have your units confused though, Jet Fuel is about 11,900 WH/kg, but Hydrogen is 39,000 WH/kg, again, a little over 3x greater for hydrogen. (again hydrogen has the highest specific energy by mass) I suspect you mean to compare volume or energy density per volume (liter or gallons), where fossil fuels have about 10x the energy per volume. That means hydrogen takes up much more space. But no fuel has more energy per mass than hydrogen. Even decade-old research papers indicate commercially available hydrogen storage at 1400w/kg using composite storage tanks. I'm not arguing against fossil fuel powered airplanes. But I would estimate a fuel-cell powered electric airplane approaches an actually useful design, versus one based on rechargeable batteries, in range and payload capacity, not to mention the rapidity of refueling.
|
|
Top |
|
Username Protected
|
Post subject: Re: My crazy airplane idea and pitch.... Posted: 06 Oct 2021, 22:11 |
|
 |

|
|
 |
Joined: 01/30/09 Posts: 3614 Post Likes: +2261 Location: $ilicon Vall€y
Aircraft: Columbia 400
|
|
Username Protected wrote: The energy density depends on whether you count the tanks. For avgas or jet fuel, the tank weight is small compared to the fuel weight. For hydrogen, the tank weight can be much larger than the fuel weight - except for large cryogenic tanks.
I did count the tanks... Hydrogen is way, way better than lithium-ion batteries, which are not only heavy, they also have to enclosed in a large, heavy, metal case... The fuel cell is not very heavy. About the same as a Rotax. It would be quite reasonable to build and fly a hydrogen fuel cell light-sport and get a couple of hours or more range out of it.
|
|
Top |
|
Username Protected
|
Post subject: Re: My crazy airplane idea and pitch.... Posted: 06 Oct 2021, 22:35 |
|
 |

|
|
Joined: 01/06/08 Posts: 5117 Post Likes: +2954
Aircraft: B55 P2
|
|
I'm seeing hydrogen (no tanks) as about 2.5X the energy density (when burned) as Kerosene: https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/hydrogen-storageIf your above, 60KG of tanks for 6KG of hydrogen is correct, then hydrogen including tanks has about 1/4 the energy density of kerosene including tanks (which are minimal for kerosene). That is your above 700 bar (10,000 psi). That isn't crazy, but if I look at my baron, I carry 140 gallons of fuel (840 pounds) out of 5100# or airplane. If I increase than 840 to 3200, I have no useful load left. Clearly a hydrogen powered plane needs to be designed differently. For large aircraft, cryogenic storage is fine - the tanks do not need to store very long (the airplanes have high use factor) and the complexity of the tanks is not such a big deal relative to the aircraft size. Of course large aircraft have a higher percentage of fuel vs total weight, so they will need the higher density storage. Maybe there is a way to make light planes use H2, but they are such a small user of fossil fuels, it doesn't seem worth the engineering investment. I think a reasoable approach to climate change is to go after the ~80% easiest targets and live with 20% of the current emissions. That last 20% can get very expensive
|
|
Top |
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot post attachments in this forum
|
Terms of Service | Forum FAQ | Contact Us
BeechTalk, LLC is the quintessential Beechcraft Owners & Pilots Group providing a
forum for the discussion of technical, practical, and entertaining issues relating to all Beech aircraft. These include
the Bonanza (both V-tail and straight-tail models), Baron, Debonair, Duke, Twin Bonanza, King Air, Sierra, Skipper, Sport, Sundowner,
Musketeer, Travel Air, Starship, Queen Air, BeechJet, and Premier lines of airplanes, turboprops, and turbojets.
BeechTalk, LLC is not affiliated or endorsed by the Beechcraft Corporation, its subsidiaries, or affiliates.
Beechcraft™, King Air™, and Travel Air™ are the registered trademarks of the Beechcraft Corporation.
Copyright© BeechTalk, LLC 2007-2025
|
|
|
|