BeechTalk - BT

Username Protected · **Posted:** 26 Aug 2018, 17:48

For the two choices you’ve listed I’d go with the M500 unless you think you need the range or payload of the M600. But for the money I’d suggest you consider a later model TBM. Bigger, more comfortable, bigger payload, longer range, stronger airframe, faster than the M500/600.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 26 Aug 2018, 18:07

Username Protected wrote:

David,

Obviously you live in South Florida as I do. I recently sold my Meridian. so I can easily speak to owning a Piper turboprop product here. I have a couple of comments.

My concern is ease of service that goes well beyond the airplane specifications. It is the entire ownership experience. The fastest airplane isn't very fast sitting in a hangar. I absolutely love Sun Aviation (Piper Service Center) in Vero. They are very competent, super experienced, and extremely well priced. They are total aces as well as nice people. I also trusted their advise and recommendations for non-required services.

Maybe it isn't a big deal to service an SF50 in S. Fl., but it is new to any shop here at a minimum, and I hate downtime sorting out new problems. Sun Aviation is quick, they always hit schedules, and annuals were always completed within the same week. They can tell you almost to the penny what repairs will cost. Also, recurrent training can be done in Vero at Legacy on a simulator while you're getting your annual. Living near Vero makes owning a M500/M600 pretty easy.

Secondly, my old boat Captain installed an aluminum rail system for my Meridian with a separate, removable rail outside my 44' door that easily guided me in without any wingtip damage. He has since opened up a construction business and has installed a number of these M500/M600 rails in S. Fl. since then.

Rick

You have any pictures of that rail system? Sounds interesting and I will need something similar (maybe) if I find the right Baron to put in my hangar.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 26 Aug 2018, 19:11

Username Protected wrote:

For the two choices you’ve listed I’d go with the M500 unless you think you need the range or payload of the M600. But for the money I’d suggest you consider a later model TBM. Bigger, more comfortable, bigger payload, longer range, stronger airframe, faster than the M500/600.

The TBM is nice, but don't think I would say more comfortable. The TBM is louder inside, the cabin is a little taller but a couple inches narrower than the M600, so are you tall or wide ;-)

The seats are both nice, my wife chose the P46 seats and cabin over the TBM, not knowing the price of the planes, she thought the P46 was the nicer one. We had them side by side and tested all the seats. The range of the M600 and the TBM is essentially the same. From a TBM salesman who happens to be a friend of mine, he told me that Piper underestimated the range in the M600, and TBM is overly optimistic, so the real world range is actually the same. They can both go almost anywhere in the US non stop as long as you are not starting on one of the coasts. Also I don't think I would put stronger airframe in there for the TBM. They are both plenty strong, and I don't think you could break either one of them in any normal flight regime. The Va and Vmo speeds are within a few percentage points in each aircraft. 157 vs 153 and 266 versus 251. G limits are also the same.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 26 Aug 2018, 19:20

Ok. I want an M600 now!

Username Protected · **Posted:** 26 Aug 2018, 19:28

I would say the biggest advantage of the TBM would be the nose baggage compartment and the flexible seating which allows for a large storage space, and even a lav if you are OK With it being a 4 seater in that configuration. The M600 is limited to 100 lbs in the back storage. Haven't found it limiting, but does require thinking about what you are going to pack for a long trip. It is 1.5 mil more....

Username Protected · **Posted:** 26 Aug 2018, 19:29

I looked at the TBM as well as Pilatus, Eclipse, Mustang, SF50, and M500. After two years of thought, considering many variables, I ended up with the M600, but everyone needs to weigh their own variables. They’re all good planes. One last comment I’d make is a more capable plane will create missions. My plan is to not fly commercial again. I make trips now that I would fly commercial when I had my piston Cirrus. Good luck!

Username Protected · **Posted:** 26 Aug 2018, 19:36

Username Protected wrote:

From a financial practicality standpoint a M500 would probably be all I need. But something about G3000, more power, more useful load, a clean sheet wing, and hypoxia mode has me wanting to reach the extra bit if I am already this close. Having owned both Chuck I welcome your input. It is a lot more money. It takes me to the top of what I would consider spending. I have no experience at the flight levels so the automatic descent feature seems comforting to my uneducated mind after having read some headline stories in the past. Perhaps overly so with some training. Long term ownership of a slightly used M500 is an option I would love some input on.

Do you M600 owners think there are improvements being made at the factory that have not been advertised (other than the ADs) or that no rough edges really existed for piper to smooth out?

I would say the hypoxia mode is probably more marketing although, great I have it. The M600 and M500 have a very clever pressurization system. In short the TBM fatal could not happen in a Piper. If you were to have a main pressurization failure or outflow valve failure, there is a back up system that will automatically open a backup bleed air source and if necessary normally silent solenoids that will manually close the outflow valves if the cabin exceeds pre-determined levels. There are several layers and multiple sensors that determine cabin pressure, so silent hypoxia would require so many separate failures, almost inconceivable. There has never been a PA46, P46T or M600 hypoxia accident. So the auto-descent, I would not feel bad not having it.

All the early issues were vetted with SB's and AD's. just make sure they were all done in pre-purchase of a used aircraft. All birds are in warranty since the M600 has 5 year airframe and 7 year engine warranty. Anything that you see on a 2019 can be retro'd on the earlier birds, some may involve a cost, like the dual landing lights, the 5-blade prop etc. The removable ballast SB to change CG can be put in any time on the older birds for free while in warranty. May want that if you carry a lot of weight in the back.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 26 Aug 2018, 22:31

On paper the difference between the M500 and M600 isn't that much. They both fly at the same speed up high and have the same interior dimensions and the same cabin pressure. Having owned both though, they are fundamentally different. It's hard to describe but the M500 feels like a piston plane on steroids and the M600 feels like a jet. Long flights are a breeze. The M600 is much smoother and rock solid in the air and on the ground. And It should be for $1mm more.

I agree with Chuck that the size difference between a TBM and M600 is negligible unless you are always flying with max baggage. The TBM costs more to operate and maintain but 850+ TBMs are 50 knots faster and that can matter on long trips as can the TBMs higher cabin diff. A great value on a used TBM may be a lower cost ownership experience than a new M600.

The key thing to keep in mind with Pipers is the design philosophy. Piper set out to build the easiest to fly, most forgiving and cost efficient single pilot TP. They succeeded. So did Cirrus BTW with respect to jets. Piper doesn't build the fastest (TBM), it doesn't hold the most (PC12) but it is the least expensive.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 26 Aug 2018, 22:39

Username Protected wrote:

For the two choices you’ve listed I’d go with the M500 unless you think you need the range or payload of the M600. But for the money I’d suggest you consider a later model TBM. Bigger, more comfortable, bigger payload, longer range, stronger airframe, faster than the M500/600.

The TBM is nice, but don't think I would say more comfortable. The TBM is louder inside, the cabin is a little taller but a couple inches narrower than the M600, so are you tall or wide ;-)

The seats are both nice, my wife chose the P46 seats and cabin over the TBM, not knowing the price of the planes, she thought the P46 was the nicer one. We had them side by side and tested all the seats. The range of the M600 and the TBM is essentially the same. From a TBM salesman who happens to be a friend of mine, he told me that Piper underestimated the range in the M600, and TBM is overly optimistic, so the real world range is actually the same. They can both go almost anywhere in the US non stop as long as you are not starting on one of the coasts. Also I don't think I would put stronger airframe in there for the TBM. They are both plenty strong, and I don't think you could break either one of them in any normal flight regime. The Va and Vmo speeds are within a few percentage points in each aircraft. 157 vs 153 and 266 versus 251. G limits are also the same.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 26 Aug 2018, 23:03

Username Protected wrote:

I have no experience at the flight levels so the automatic descent feature seems comforting to my uneducated mind after having read some headline stories in the past. Perhaps overly so with some training.

I don't think you should be overly concerned about flying in the flight levels in any pressurized airplane. There are well documented incidents of course but they are rare. The auto descent feature on Garmin's newer avionics are nice, I had it on my Cirrus, and it's always good to have back up. But the key to flying safely up high is training. Regardless of what you buy I hope you'll do sim, airplane and chamber training for loss of pressurization events. Then, if anything ever goes amiss you'll be ready to deal with it and won't have to wait to go lights out and have Garmin save your bacon.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 26 Aug 2018, 23:29

Struggling with this decision as well. Have not come to resolution. I will say that if you showed up with your checkbook at Cirrus today, you might be surprised how fast you could get a Vision.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Aug 2018, 06:05

Username Protected wrote:

Ok. I want an M600 now!

me too.

I am 5' 9" and 168lbs. I'm pretty flexible. I got in one at OSH. I was surprised how tough it was to get in and out. It was really tough. poor forward vis. really disappointed me.

Maybe Charles can set me straight, but for a while I thought it was the answer to my prayers...

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Aug 2018, 06:21

Username Protected wrote:

I am 5' 9" and 168lbs. I'm pretty flexible. I got in one at OSH. I was surprised how tough it was to get in and out. It was really tough. poor forward vis. really disappointed me.

Maybe Charles can set me straight, but for a while I thought it was the answer to my prayers...

I think the M600 is a beautiful plane, Ive always loved the form of them. I’m 6’2”, 175 lbs and have no issues getting into one, not much different to my 340A. But maybe i am just used to the citation yoga now :peace:

Andrew

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Aug 2018, 07:55

Username Protected wrote:

Struggling with this decision as well. Have not come to resolution. I will say that if you showed up with your checkbook at Cirrus today, you might be surprised how fast you could get a Vision.

That’s interesting. How long would the wait be? Are you implying that they don’t have the backlog they claim or is it that many on the waiting list near the top would like to sell their positions?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 27 Aug 2018, 09:05

The range on the M600 is incredible. Piper just updated their website to say max range of the M600 is 1658 nm from the old site that quoted 1384 NBAA range. Probably tired of me saying their POH was wrong in the good direction ;-)

Unless you are doing some crazy long hauls, it is enough. Here are some recent real world flights of 1865 nm, 1602 nm and 1264 nm. The last was a East to West with an average 32 knots headwind, and landed with 1.5 hours fuel. The 1865 nm flight was at reduced cruise of 242 KTAS, the others normal cruise of 262 KTAS. That is the real world. Still beats the POH numbers, as we see 5 knots higher on slightly less than POH recommended power settings.

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Piper M600 vs Cirrus SF50 Vision Jet