I don't think these examples are as equal as you're presenting them.

I think both paths are valid. I also think that the person financing the aircraft is also more likely to be intolerant of squawks or downtime, but these are variables and not subject to direct comparison (at least not without more rigor)

For a given non-airworthy squawk, I suggest that the "sweat equity" path can defer and wait for opportunities to address the squawk cheaply (for example, by waiting for inexpensive parts to be located -- something that definitely can convert time into savings, at expense to irritation) -- especially on a twin, I see a lot of folks who are doing champagne planes with pabst budgets -- they'll defer all manner of stuff. One alternator, one vacuum source, all manner of instrumentation nonsense. Hey, it broke in the air, mister inspector.

For two planes maintained with intolerance of downtime, I agree with the others, buying the turnkey plane is absolutely cheapest.

For those gentleman aviators, though, who don't NEED to be anywhere, they can absolutely wait for an inexpensive used engine, or cobble together a deal for cheaper AME labor that isn't on a regular schedule, or keep a list of needed parts and acquire them from eBay, controller parts, or barnstormers as inexpensive ones appear.

I think each party looks uncomprehendingly at the other and shakes their head -- but I also think both parties get to fly airplanes. They just might not want to fly the other person's airplane.

$0.02

- Mike

Sure, but this builds on that a "better" plane will be less susceptible to squawks. I've found that purchase price isn't always a good indicator. I see as many PC12's in the shop as I do A90's.

I see much more actually. PC12, whilst not cheap to 'fix' the cost to maintain is very good relatively speaking.

I think we disagree on this point. I think the downtime-intolerant owner-pilot will generally maintain and seek out squawks to nip in the bud, because for whatever reason, "time is money" to them, and they treat downtime as a loss of time or money and struggle to prevent it.

I also think that when it is time for them to sell, they will ask a higher price, and a like-minded individual will see the value and pay that price. Generally. There are obviously folks who think their replacing the left tire on a tired bird 3 years ago equates to a 20% markup, and those who think they can file their maintenance expenses in the "upgrades" column when setting the sale price. An informed buyer can sift through that chaff pretty quickly.

I think the main differentiating currency is time. If you don't value uptime in the aircraft, you won't be as aggressive in preventing small squawks. The one who values uptime sees a small squawk today as a large squawk tomorrow.

The more complex the bird, the more I think this philosophy holds. The difference between a middling C172 and a "blank checkbook" C172 of same vintage is probably not very great. On a fire-breathing twin though? I just have to think that patting out small fires constantly and quickly equates to a healthier overall airframe. Not a risk-free one. Just a generally "cheaper to maintain" one, because more of its components will have been replaced, and the "average time remaining" in all of the assorted pieces is higher than the "run to or past failure" philosophy, and certainly more than the "hey I have at least one of those still working" philosophy

Maybe the better way to say it is that the highly-maintained plane is, generally, a "better gamble" ? Obviously any plane can generate a surprise liable to cost an amount of AMUs commensurate with the category. I'd think this is 25K in singles, 50K in piston twins, and 100K in turbines.

A shrewd buyer can pick the one that has been well maintained regardless of purchase price. That same buyer is also likely to wait longer for "the right deal".

Maybe we're not disagreeing that much after all.

IMO, that's proper.

The logbook is a log of *what* maintenance work and required inspections were done, not a journal of *why* that work was needed. If the prop was OH'd, the engine reman'd and the doors/skins repaired, that's what the logs should reflect. No root cause is required nor desired, IMO.

IMO, that's proper.

The logbook is a log of *what* maintenance work and required inspections were done, not a journal of *why* that work was needed. If the prop was OH'd, the engine reman'd and the doors/skins repaired, that's what the logs should reflect. No root cause is required nor desired, IMO.

The other reasons are 100 hours until HSI on one engine and 7500 hour inspection are coming up soon. If both these items were taken care of, 350k would be a more reasonable number. The F model that sold in 3 days was a steal and will be difficult to replicate.

Its log book went with it.


No log required.

Replacement prop and engine come with their logbooks.


Log books are not aircraft history, they are maintenance actions.

Mike C.

The other reasons are 100 hours until HSI on one engine and 7500 hour inspection are coming up soon. If both these items were taken care of, 350k would be a more reasonable number. The F model that sold in 3 days was a steal and will be difficult to replicate.

Lee,
I seriously considered this plane earlier this year. The info I received on the 7500 hour inspection if I recall was about $30000. The wings and tail are removed and they look for issues. The $30k assumes they don't find anything. More $$$ if they do.
The HSI is less predictable. The fact that the engines were overhauled less than 1800 hours ago suggests that the HSI could be realatively cheap. Maybe ~ $25-$50k?

Really like this plane personally.

Essentially, they never find anything. There's growing sentiment that the 7500 inspection is not justified. It is likely to cause more issues than it fixes. A friend of mine had his F model go through it. Created a few minor squawks afterward but nothing was found.

Costs vary. $30K would be good. Most run about $50K with all the "while you are in there" stuff plus the standard inspections (100 hour, etc) done at the same time. My mechanic charges a base price of $22,500 for the 7500 hour as a reference.

The 7500 hour inspection is not a particularly scary thing other than the cost.


Sorry, I'd budget more than that, say $70K and hope it is less. With the engine times staggered, at least the cost doesn't come due at the same time, though you suffer two down times. I don't have good figures on -1 engine HSI cost.

The HSI cost will depend a great deal on the care of the person(s) who flew the airplane prior to you. If they overtemped the engine, much $$$. Saw a K model once in prebuy, first wheels all burned up, $100K/side for HSI.

Mike C.

Mine are quoted as between $50-60K, but who knows until you open them up. The previous charter pilot that flew it said he always tried to keep them cool. He took off at max continuous 545 degrees, rather than max allowed 575 degrees.

My HSI on the left engine that's due to a cycle out poses a slight conundrum when there's only about 1100hr left. Is that money better spent on, say an exchange engine with fresh HSI's and about 1500-2000hr left, or is it better to just do the hot section? I'll have to ask around and do some comparing when the time comes. Seems like used -1's go for around $30-50/hr with times left on them.

1100 hours left until what?

If that is overhaul (5400), note that overhaul is not mandatory for part 91. If you get a hot section, you can fly another 1800 hours, including past TBO.


It is going to depend on the relative health of the two engines. The used one may come with all sorts of problems, including having something cycle out at some point, too.

If the economics are close, I'd do the engine you already have since you know how it works and how it matches with its mate on the other wing.

Mike C.

Essentially, they never find anything. There's growing sentiment that the 7500 inspection is not justified. It is likely to cause more issues than it fixes. A friend of mine had his F model go through it. Created a few minor squawks afterward but nothing was found.

Costs vary. $30K would be good. Most run about $50K with all the "while you are in there" stuff plus the standard inspections (100 hour, etc) done at the same time. My mechanic charges a base price of $22,500 for the 7500 hour as a reference.

The 7500 hour inspection is not a particularly scary thing other than the cost.


Sorry, I'd budget more than that, say $70K and hope it is less. With the engine times staggered, at least the cost doesn't come due at the same time, though you suffer two down times. I don't have good figures on -1 engine HSI cost.

The HSI cost will depend a great deal on the care of the person(s) who flew the airplane prior to you. If they overtemped the engine, much $$$. Saw a K model once in prebuy, first wheels all burned up, $100K/side for HSI.

Mike C.

I understand that, but I'm also not experienced enough to know what knock on effects that will have. Gearbox overhauls? Core value of over TBO engine etc? Maybe it's fine and I'm certainly no stranger to flying over TBO as I've done it with both my previous aircraft. If there's no penalty, then I'll certainly do so if I can.