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12 Jun 2025, 05:59 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: Flew the Citation II today SDL to TEX - VID
PostPosted: 24 Jan 2015, 16:16 
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In using an aircraft as a business tool, I spent a little time arguing with my accountant that 'my time' has a value when compared to commercial.

I was told that I can only associate the cost of a 'commercial ticket' as an expense and not the cost of the aircraft or my time. The other interesting part was that if I take my family (which I always do) I have to deduct that against their 'commercial tickets' value.
Your accountant may be confusing the entertainment use taxation rules (which is what you posted) as opposed to the general business expense deductibility question, which requires that the expense be incurred in the course of carrying out your trade and that it be ordinary and necessary.

There's nothing in the tax code to suggest that you need to use the lowest cost means of travel. Surely, riding a bicycle would be cheaper than driving, yet you're allowed to drive. Driving is often cheaper than commercial flying, yet you can fly commercial...


Not looking to hijack Mark's thread.....

My bad on my posting and confusion. The entertainment has specific application to me. If it takes me 4k to fly to Atlanta in a jet but $400 commercial my understanding is that I have to use the commercial figure as my cost basis for tax/expense purposes.

My other 'issue' is that my family goes with me wherever I go, There are also always a few stragglers. If I'm flying for business, but my family is with me, the rule set seems kinda clear that their commercial cost would offset my business benefit.

I'll get Rick's perspective as I disagree with my accountant.

My kids are home schooled so frankly this is part of their education process :peace:
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 Post subject: Re: Flew the Citation II today SDL to TEX - VID
PostPosted: 24 Jan 2015, 18:04 
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Joined: 01/28/13
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Michael,

Rule 1. Hire aviation tax/atty professional before you jump. You really need to let experts tell you what your tax consequences will be based on your situation...

That's wrong. You can deduct, if business use, whatever it costs to travel. Whether B757 or C152. You determine.

On the other hand you are right that your deduction will be reduced by a charge for your family going along, in many, not all, situations. That reduction may be deminimis in your circumstances..

Hire an aviation tax atty or accountant if you are looking at moving up. They can discuss your situation and the hoops to jump through. You are also allowed to use it for entertainment, personal and work. In some cases you will have to reimburse yourself at the SIFL rate as determined yearly by the above experts.

The above is only a reasonable taximile of advice so take it with a pinch of salt.. See rule 1. PM if you'd like a number/name

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Chuck
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 Post subject: Re: Flew the Citation II today SDL to TEX - VID
PostPosted: 24 Jan 2015, 18:12 
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Chuck, fair enough and thanks. If that's the case, I'm golden :peace:

Maybe not a 737, but something burning JetA.

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 Post subject: Re: Flew the Citation II today SDL to TEX - VID
PostPosted: 25 Jan 2015, 13:19 
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Tony: I'm in Europe right now, so excuse the disjointed posts from my I-Phone. The dry lease must give us the choice of crew. Too much control by owner doesn't work. They maintain the plane and I lease for an hourly rate. For the V its 1,200 per hour plus fuel and any crew. They insure the plane and I can be covered as SIC until rated. Then PIC with some number of hours. Let's say I would fly it 50 or 60 hours a year. Doesn't seem to make sense to purchase for that. I'm leasing and can get a little better rate if I commit to more hours, like 25 or more a year. I pay to fly it, plane, fuel, crew, and I'm done. We agree on them making it available. The other side is it may not be available when I want it, usually can't take it a long time and park it on a trip, and crew has to be approved by them.
Helpful?

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 Post subject: Re: Flew the Citation II today SDL to TEX - VID
PostPosted: 25 Jan 2015, 13:23 
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Thanks Nigel! Your posts are always most helpful.

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 Post subject: Re: Flew the Citation II today SDL to TEX - VID
PostPosted: 25 Jan 2015, 18:36 
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Dave,

Yes that is. Are you able to do that with an individual or through a 135 operator managing the plane?

Have a great time in Europe!

Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Flew the Citation II today SDL to TEX - VID
PostPosted: 25 Jan 2015, 22:06 
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Username Protected wrote:
In using an aircraft as a business tool, I spent a little time arguing with my accountant that 'my time' has a value when compared to commercial.

I was told that I can only associate the cost of a 'commercial ticket' as an expense and not the cost of the aircraft or my time. The other interesting part was that if I take my family (which I always do) I have to deduct that against their 'commercial tickets' value.

Gonna get a turbo prop anyways, but the expense rules have me seriously scratching my head :scratch:


Hire an aviation accounting firm. Most accountants don't understand airplanes and the rules.


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 Post subject: Re: Flew the Citation II today SDL to TEX - VID
PostPosted: 25 Jan 2015, 22:09 
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But what if you're just buying your first jet? Is there a reason to choose and Encore over a CJ3? Why would I pick one over the other? The CJ3 costs more to acquire I think.

CJ4 is out. I think it costs a lot more to run than a CJ3 but not much more benefit. Even the CJ sales guys tell me this.


There is those two words again!

Sorry Jason. I couldn't help myself. :rofl:


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 Post subject: Re: Flew the Citation II today SDL to TEX - VID
PostPosted: 26 Jan 2015, 03:17 
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Tony: tried to reply and keep getting some err. I'll try again later.

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 Post subject: Re: Flew the Citation II today SDL to TEX - VID
PostPosted: 26 Jan 2015, 03:23 
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Leasing from a 135 operator that's trying to make a profit. Have an individual that will lease a II more competitively to cover inspections and fixed costs.

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Dave Siciliano, ATP


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 Post subject: Re: Flew the Citation II today SDL to TEX - VID
PostPosted: 26 Jan 2015, 17:53 
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Hey Mark...what took you so long to get off the ground :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Flew the Citation II today SDL to TEX - VID
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2015, 09:33 
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Maybe a bit off topic and well covered in other posts but I always enjoy posts about the older Citations and low entry costs. I sat in 500 last week that was in the hangar next to mine. I asked a mechanic I know what to expect in maintantance costs, his answer..."Give me $50,000 " I said, for what? His response, if you have to ask, you can't afford it. Lol

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Last edited on 27 Jan 2015, 23:29, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Flew the Citation II today SDL to TEX - VID
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2015, 10:24 
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Joined: 05/29/13
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Company: Easy Ice, LLC
Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
Username Protected wrote:
Maybe a bit off topic and well covered in other posts but I always enjoy posts about the older Citations and low entry costs. I sat in 500 last week that was in the hangar next to mine. I asked a mechanic I know what to expect in maintantance costs, his answer..."Give $50,000 " I said, for what? His response, if you have to ask, you can't afford it. Lol


$50k is what a decent prebuy will cost you.

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 Post subject: Re: Flew the Citation II today SDL to TEX - VID
PostPosted: 28 Jan 2015, 20:29 
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Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
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Quick story: In my analysis I included the cost of executive time saved as a factor in evaluating travel options. This came up at my Board meeting. One Board member confided that he recently had spent a week traveling around a state his company does business in visiting plants. During that time period he drove 1,300 miles. This is senior guy knocking down $500k year. There is no rationale for this approach. 5 days out of the field. 1,300 miles, and worse yet....a conclusion on his part that he would not likely do this again for a year because of the time and effort required.

Just sayin

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Mark Hangen
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 Post subject: Re: Flew the Citation II today SDL to TEX - VID
PostPosted: 28 Jan 2015, 22:04 
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Username Protected wrote:
5 days out of the field. 1,300 miles, and worse yet....a conclusion on his part that he would not likely do this again for a year because of the time and effort required.


Some people think big, some people think small, and some people ask if there is a better way.

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