Vref says 600K per side,what is your experience Chip?

Not sure Chips experience helps here. LOL he thinks it should be double what anyone else is actually spending. But maybe because he has never seen a JT15 vending machine before.

Mike

Vref has lots of data on Pratt rebuilds and I would trust their estimate.

Maybe Mike C mis-read?

From Mike T: -A midtime used -5A is $350K exchange ““

What ever happened to the $65,000 quote from Duncan??

I can’t get the guy that had to to respond. I fired him so I get why he isn’t wanting to help me. I did ask Duncan for a new quote and have not got it yet.

The other quote I posted has the guys name that was helping me so you can see it did not go to me. Which I why I don’t have it. I remember talking to the Duncan guy about it and it was for sure over $65k. The guy admitted that it was crazy.

I will ask again for the new quote.


Mike

I’ve actually had a set overhauled.

Have you?

They were over $400k a side and that was 10 years ago.

I would budget $600k a side and hope for something closer to $500k… and that is not at Standard or Pratt.

I don’t believe you can get an overhaul done anywhere for $375k… not even on a first run.

It’s not so much that I double everything, as it is that Mike shoots low to support his position.

The cost of engine overhauls have gone up considerably in the last couple of years.

I can’t get the guy that had to to respond. I fired him so I get why he isn’t wanting to help me. I did ask Duncan for a new quote and have not got it yet.

The other quote I posted has the guys name that was helping me so you can see it did not go to me. Which I why I don’t have it. I remember talking to the Duncan guy about it and it was for sure over $65k. The guy admitted that it was crazy.

I will ask again for the new quote.


Mike

Number given to me by ITI at their NBAA booth last week for a JT15D-5A which doesn't have any major parts cycling out (my engines don't for the next ~5000 hours, or ~40 years at my current usage rate).

I'm surprised you are not aware of this shop and its services.

Their shop is 6 to 8 months out, BTW. Very busy.

Mike C.

Number given to me by ITI at their NBAA booth last week for a JT15D-5A which doesn't have any major parts cycling out (my engines don't for the next ~5000 hours, or ~40 years at my current usage rate).

I'm surprised you are not aware of this shop and its services.

Their shop is 6 to 8 months out, BTW. Very busy.

Mike C.

I overhauled a 5A at ITI on a “do it when you can no rush basis” for $225k 2 years ago. He said he wouldn’t do that again.

Mike

You have to make some assumptions to compute this, so here goes:

Hull cost:

C560V: I'm under $1M, but not achievable today. Let's say it take $1.5M now.
M600: $3M

Opex:

C560V: I am running about $1300 hour (at 125 hours/year), looks like that may be achievable generally. Includes fuel, hangar, insurance, maintenance. I take no benefit from upping time to 200 hours.
M600: I'd guess about $700 for the same list of stuff (given hangar, insurance amortize over more hours).

Reserves:

C560V: $100/hour/engine using my one HSI past TBO cycle.
M600: $80/hour for engine and prop.

Cost of money: 8%

200 hours of C560V:

Money: $120K
Opex: $260K
Reserves: $40K
Total: $420K

300 hours of M600:

Money: $240K
Opex: $210K
Reserves: $24K
Total: $474K

You are about $50K ahead, net, flying the C560V. And it is a totally different experience with the ability to carry 9 people and go 1800 nm non stop in quiet over the weather comfort.

Mike C.

They shouldn’t have to give you a new quote, if they quoted that, they will have it in their system by N number and they can resend it to you.

No, I did the opposite, I didn't use my ACTUAL numbers which would have made my plane so much more favorable. I used numbers for someone getting in TODAY, not when you or I bought, which make the C560V far less attractive, but still very competitive.


So your plane is worth more than a new one today? That's unusual, but even so, let's assume that is true.

Okay, my turn to play your game using your rules.

I didn't borrow either, paid $700K, let's add in the avionics at $234K, so $934K total buy in. My Vref is now $1.55M. I've owned it for almost 3 years, the cost of the $934K at 5% has been $47K per year, my return on hull value increase is $205K per year. My cost of money per year is thus negative $158K, I'm making almost as much money as it costs me to fly, basically.

Now let's feed that into the calculation:

200 hours of C560V:

Money: -$158K
Opex: $260K
Reserves: $40K
Total: $142K


Okay, taking that at face value, $334K per year, I'm almost $200K ahead each year so far when I use my ACTUAL numbers of my situation, as you have done for you.

My 2022 total costs were detailed in another thread, spreadsheet and all, so I'm more open about it than just about anybody else is. There you can see what I pay for maintenance, insurance, hangar, fuel, etc.

You can define the rules of engagement and I will play on your field, but you will find it very hard to make your M600 come out meaningfully ahead of my C560V unless you purposefully turn a blind eye to the cost of money. This is a far bigger factor today than it has been in the past.


Market value is a major factor in how much it costs to fly. I've generally been lucky to choose airplanes that have appreciated in value, sometimes very significantly despite having more hours on their airframes and engines.

What will be our hull values in 5 years? Nobody really knows, but based on past history, I think both of ours will decrease. My expectation is I'd be around $1M and you around $2M. We shall see.

Mike C.

Wow! That is cheap, seems incredibly low!

I’d consider that a win!

Can you share the invoice so we can see what they did and didn’t have to do?