I am not a new guy,I got my private in 1982 and I got my CE500 type in the late 90s and owned a 501SP for 4 years,jet fever has passed.There.are various reasons that we purchase an aircraft,in my case it was insurance related to age,I had 3500 hours and 1200 in PA46 with almost all hours in RG.My wife really wanted the Garmin Auto Land and I wanted the G3000NG which is extremely automated.When I bought in 2021 prices had not firmed up and compared to a new one today I purchased at 800K below a 2023 new one so at the moment my number is OK but that could change tomorrow.I am pleased with the performance 265-280 KTS on 35-44 GPH depending on altitude.Piper has undersold this platform and mine is always 8-12 KTS above book,it is not a TBM but it is an easy transition from a piston to TP.I have a Pilatus NGX on order that will replace my M600 and TBM 900 when the insurance company decides I cannot fly any longer,I like the efficiency of a SETP.

Because that is a legitimate choice for what to buy.

For the rare "new only" guy, he is in a new M600 but he compromised his capabilities to do that.

For the "most bang for the buck" guy, he will consider the Citation.

In the current high interest rate environment we are in, the cost of capital is a major factor in the true total cost of ownership. The extra $2M in the M600 is being devalued rapidly as time passes, and that is a cost you have to consider. Further, the initial new market depreciation is non trivial. The cost of new is substantial in many ways.

Mike C.

Okay, but you are buying a $7M new airplane which will cost you about $560,000 in cost of money per year, not including initial market depreciation.

That sure buys a lot of fuel!

Basically, buying a new Pilatus and also touting the efficiency seem kind of incongruous, at least financially.

Curious, was a Citation M2 considered? Saves about $2M over the PC-12 which also buys a lot of fuel, goes faster, is safer, etc.

The M2 seems like a pretty nice fit for the "buy new" customer for personal flying if they have a $7M budget.

Mike C.

M2 might work but useful load,range and number of seats is an issue.I have one family with 6 so add pilot and that is 7 right now the smallest is under 2 so he can ride in a lap.Actually a PC12 is 6M.

We are all very good at justifying what we do. Justifying buying a $7M aircraft because it's cheap to fly is a good one. Haha

My buddy that had the PC-12 with the $500k bad engine day sold it. He did really well because of market timing.

He needed to make a trip for a race so I offered to take them in my Eagle II. He went back and looked and the same trip in the PC-12 was not much cheaper in fuel. His family thought the rear seats in my plane were more comfortable and larger than his PC-12. The crazy thing was his old plane left the same airport ahead of us going right over our destination and only 15 min past. We beat them by an hour. He said that hour was way worth the higher cost in fuel.

He is looking for a Mustang to replace the PC-12 but not sure it gives him the range. His son races Supercross and travels all over the states.

That reminds me of a really cool photo I got on that trip. Was at FL390 heading back east during thee sunset and we had a shadow of our trail. You don't get this in a SETP. Would have been down in the soup in a PC-12 or any SETP.

Mike

Their contract terms have inexorably moved to favoring them over the years. Every year on contract, they can raise the price any amount they want (they used to be tied to CPI, not any more). Every 5 years, they can change the contract terms to anything they want. At all times, their contract language is interpreted by Williams and you have no power to say otherwise.


Williams has convinced the OEMs to use their engines. They do so due to better fuel efficiency so they can put heavier interior furnishings in the planes and have less fuel loads. Ultimately, that's the market tradeoff for the new buyer, fancy gizmos in the cabin.


There are other options for the JT15D owner that the FJ44 never has.

For one, the JT15D owner can choose which shop to do the HSI and OH at. There is no choice other than Williams for the FJ44.

Comparing engine reserves:

FJ44: $190/hour

JT15D: $50K HSI, $375K OH over 3500 hours is $121/hour

Even on this basis, the JT15D is less per hour. The $69/hour difference buys 15 GPH extra fuel, which makes up the fuel efficiency difference.

For another reason, the part 91 operator can fly past TBO which can reduce the per hour costs. If an owner does this just once, then they get:

JT15D: $50K HSI, $75K HSI, $375K OH over 5250 hours is $95/hour


"Just $2M"

That's more than the hull value of many of these airplanes.

And that is *IF* Williams doesn't screw you with change in terms and rates. Their rates have been going up DOUBLE of inflation. It doesn't take a math whiz to figure out how that ends.


This basically makes the used FJ44 engine market almost non existent. I can find and buy used JT15D engines, another pathway to saving money.

And here's another Williams catch: some owner pays for years into the program, then, for whatever reason including clerical error, they let it lapse. To get back into the program, you have to pay for EVERY HOUR SINCE ZERO, despite they already got paid for most of those hours in the past. Williams gets paid double for past hours. Nice trick, huh? This little catch is NOT in the contract explicitly, BTW, it becomes known when you try to enroll.

In other words, it is easy to lose your value in the TAP program.

The TAP program is NOT a balance of money at Williams, once paid, it is gone. There is no balance of power in the relationship, Williams has all the leverage.

Also, be on the look out for various amendments on someone's TAP program. For example, some new buyers opted for a reduced program payment plan at the start, but then it causes the later payments to be higher than list. A buyer of an airplane on that amendment will get screwed.

I made my choice to stick with the old JT15D. I do burn more fuel, but I get thrust reversers to save my brakes and make runway conditions far less critical, I get to fly past TBO, I get to choose my engine shop, and I get access to the used engine market.

Mike C.

No getting into the Williams program argument with Mike C. Haha

But I like it and it works for me.

So whats the engine reserve on a JT15D? Chip was saying its $380hr and pretty close to the same as I pay for my program. Seems hard to believe.

If we compare Meridian reserves (which also get left out of the conversation) whats the real delta in todays market?

If Chips argument is the Legacy JT15D jet will cost you way more than a SETP because of engine reserves what is that number?

Would be nice to see a real single breakdown of cost comparisons between a M600 and Legacy Citation. For 200hr on the Citation and 300 hour on the M600 were year.

Hull cost (cap cost)
Opex
Trip Fuel Burn
Engine reserves

Mike

That's a lot of precious humans to trust to one engine.

Stop and think about it.

A 15 year old CJ3 would exceed the PC-12 payload and range profile, be less expensive, and you can get it now, but doesn't tick the "new" check box. Vastly nicer for the passengers than a turboprop.

For the money, you can buy a lot of two pilot airplanes and hire two pilots. That will increase safety more than new versus used.


If your first digit is less than a 7 on the check, I'll be surprised. The contract has CPI escalators in it, so the base price is enticing, but nobody actually pays that. By the time you pay the taxes and other fees, you are well into the $7M range.

Mike C.

I proved on a separate thread that Pratts ESP engine program is no better, actually the terms are identical to Williams, and the annual inflation percentage has been higher.

Mike C had no rebuttal after his years of bashing Williams TAP program.

After reading this back and forth nonsense, which has been amusing by the way, my takeaway is everyone is stupid except Mike C.

You have to make some assumptions to compute this, so here goes:

Hull cost:

C560V: I'm under $1M, but not achievable today. Let's say it take $1.5M now.
M600: $3M

Opex:

C560V: I am running about $1300 hour (at 125 hours/year), looks like that may be achievable generally. Includes fuel, hangar, insurance, maintenance. I take no benefit from upping time to 200 hours.
M600: I'd guess about $700 for the same list of stuff (given hangar, insurance amortize over more hours).

Reserves:

C560V: $100/hour/engine using my one HSI past TBO cycle.
M600: $80/hour for engine and prop.

Cost of money: 8%

200 hours of C560V:

Money: $120K
Opex: $260K
Reserves: $40K
Total: $420K

300 hours of M600:

Money: $240K
Opex: $210K
Reserves: $24K
Total: $474K

You are about $50K ahead, net, flying the C560V. And it is a totally different experience with the ability to carry 9 people and go 1800 nm non stop in quiet over the weather comfort.

Mike C.

The Pratt program is worse, no rebut needed. JSSI isn't much better, if at all, either.

But there is one CRITICAL difference. I have choices to NOT be on the program when I operate a JT15D. There is no realistic choice for an FJ44. Williams charges off program engines MORE for HSI and OH than if they had paid into the program. They said so explicitly, about 30% more. You CANNOT get engine work done anywhere else than Williams.

The only viable plan to NOT be on the Williams program is if you are going to scrap the engines at the next major engine event. This is obviously not a viable plan for any typical situation.

Mike C.

That's not true.

You CAN buy a CJ series off programs at the "right price", get the engines overhauled, and come out ahead over buying one one programs.

This is more true on the more expensive models where the cost of the engines are a smaller percentage of the total value.

For a straight CJ that task may not be possible, but for a CJ2/3/4 it is, I am looking at doing it as we speak.

Williams told me you can't beat their program costs. Quoting Brad Deuel of Williams in an email he sent me in 2017:

"Another is that the program costs a minimum of 30% less than remaining commercial and paying for just the scheduled services as they come due.."

In this context, "remaining commercial" is off program, paying for HSI and OH (aka MPI-3 and MPI-4 in their terms) as you go. They have priced those services to be 30% higher than what the program costs would have been had you stayed on program.

It has been 6 years since that email, have they changed their policy to reduce the cost of off program engine work?

Usually, it is cheaper to catch up the program than to pay for commercial HSI and OH. A factor is that on program engines enjoy longer intervals (5000 TBO versus 4000). Amazing how the engines can last longer when Williams is paying for them. It is some magic metallurgy in those engines that have longer life if you mail checks to Williams every month.

Perhaps you are saying the market devalues off program engines more than the cost to put them back on program, which would be odd.

In any case, there is only ONE place to get FJ44 heavy engine work, and that's Williams. They set the rules and pricing and can do anything they want.

Mike C.

One of the good things about fuel is its 100% expense.

Also in part 91 I can have a passenger share in fuel cost. Can’t have them share in my huge loan payment


Also I can choose how much fuel to buy. I can’t choose to slow down my loan payments.

Mike

$375k for a JT15D-5A engine overhaul