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17 Dec 2025, 04:08 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2020, 09:10 
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Username Protected wrote:
I suppose there's no way to get amore complete story,especially the terrible engineering mistakes (as a retired Cessna engineer)?


Been a few years but the turbocharger was the biggest issue. SMA thought they could scale it up in a linear fashion to produce desired performance (the STC version of that engine had a critical attitude of sea level and a maximum approved altitude of 10,000’ iirc). The first part of the test program was to prove them wrong. And that was a success.

Also, systems integration was challenging. Finding a prop and governor that would play nice with the SMA wasn’t quite ever figured out. Really, the difference in engineering cultures between the two companies could be summed up by the two G1000 messages the engine would send. “ECU MINOR FAULT” and “ECU MAJOR FAULT.” One means the engine might quit and the other means it probably will. All that SMA thought a pilot needed to know.


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2020, 10:09 
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Username Protected wrote:
I don’t see how he recovers from the video of the flight. After watching that I am sure the investors are not very encouraged.

I can imagine how some investors will continue. Internet fanboy culture ... and a lack of technical appreciation or knowledge.

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Last edited on 12 Oct 2020, 10:22, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2020, 10:14 
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Username Protected wrote:
Add the diesel C182 to the list. Fifty+ off-field landings during development. But that number is arbitrarily high because the FAA kept insisting on methods that would simply not work.

I worked on the J182 program. You’re a large multiple above the actual number. A two digit multiple. But any were too many.

Um, okay. My info came first-hand from another engineer in the program. Since he is not here, I will defer to you. How would you characterize FAA involvement?

Regardless, I put more faith in Cessna and SMA engineers than a solo practitioner that lacks relevant experience in his CV.
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Last edited on 12 Oct 2020, 10:21, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2020, 10:20 
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Username Protected wrote:
Um, okay. My info came first-hand from another engineer in the program. Since he is not here, I will defer to you.

Regardless, I put more faith in Cessna and SMA engineers than a solo practitioner that lacks relevant experience in his CV.
I’m guessing flameouts versus off-airport landings is the difference.

And yeah...if they couldn’t get an aircraft diesel with an acceptable level of performance and reliability certified, this guy is out to lunch!


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2020, 10:57 
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How do you characterize FAA involvement in the program?

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2020, 12:55 
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Username Protected wrote:
How do you characterize FAA involvement in the program?


None after the airworthiness inspection, until he seeks certification. Then a lot.

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2020, 13:08 
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My question (thread drift) was asked in the context of the Cessna/SMA certification work. As a program engineer described FAA's participation to me ... FAA was substantively unhelpful.

I apologize for the thread drift and will take it to PM.

My opinion: Peter doesn't know, what he doesn't know and cannot imagine that it is perhaps "complicated."

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2020, 16:12 
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Username Protected wrote:
Almost all of my retract experience is in my Bonanza, which was more stable at low speeds with the gear down. Is there any airplane that’s less stable with it down?


Nope

Hard to say without test data for the Raptor.

The nose gear retracts forward, unlike a lot of light airplanes, which will make a very small c.g. shift favoring stability. The keel effect for this particular airplane could go either way... again, without hard data then it's hard to call it either way.

In any case, I doubt the Raptor's gear makes a lot of difference in stability (in any axis or really in any technical sense of the term) whether extended or retracted.

I'd love to see the data for the answer.

Did I mention data? Seems to be an unfortunate, recurring theme with this airplane.

(Not a critique on you or your post, Max.)

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2020, 16:51 
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Peter's hypothesis appears to be that the open gear wells create some aerodynamic effect that creates the instability. Perhaps so, but there are several other possibilities as well. I wonder about the elevator trim spring being too soft or the excess deflection on the ailerons that it is not clear was resolved. Rather than retract the gear, it seems to me he could build some covers for the wells to test his theory.

Not to overstate the obvious, but he's got himself in a tough spot, with glaring stability and propulsion issues to solve.


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2020, 17:54 
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I’m curious about the elevator hinging he used on the Raptor. With the hinges located well below the canard wouldn’t that change the control surface gap a lot as he changed stick position which would cause it to change pitch control pressure.

Other airplanes hinge ailerons this way but with two linked opposing aileron surfaces it may cancel out the changes in feel. They also have hinges much closer to the bottom surface.

It might be the correct hinging for a flap system but not for a control surface. Did he ever give a good reason for hinging the elevators this way?

Just eyeballing to compare with other successful past canard designs the canard appears to be too short of a span.


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2020, 02:11 
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Username Protected wrote:
Peter's hypothesis appears to be that the open gear wells create some aerodynamic effect that creates the instability. Perhaps so, but there are several other possibilities as well. I wonder about the elevator trim spring being too soft or the excess deflection on the ailerons that it is not clear was resolved. Rather than retract the gear, it seems to me he could build some covers for the wells to test his theory.

Not to overstate the obvious, but he's got himself in a tough spot, with glaring stability and propulsion issues to solve.


I’m an amateur, but isn’t there some fluid dynamics software available at a somewhat reasonable price that would be able to predict this sort of thing? I know it has been used on larger aircraft for decades, and my iPhone could probably run the simulations they used for the 777.


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2020, 06:34 
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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2020, 07:19 
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If the software result differed from Peter’s expectations he would blame the software or decide that some input was wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2020, 08:52 
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Username Protected wrote:
Peter's hypothesis appears to be that the open gear wells create some aerodynamic effect that creates the instability. Perhaps so, but there are several other possibilities as well. I wonder about the elevator trim spring being too soft or the excess deflection on the ailerons that it is not clear was resolved. Rather than retract the gear, it seems to me he could build some covers for the wells to test his theory.

Not to overstate the obvious, but he's got himself in a tough spot, with glaring stability and propulsion issues to solve.


Duct tape would close the gear holes up in about 6 minutes. Maybe $11 in materials.


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2020, 09:18 
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Username Protected wrote:
If the software result differed from Peter’s expectations he would blame the software or decide that some input was wrong.

He is using Solidworks. One thing I have noticed from being involved in engineering software tools for 20+ years is that some people seem to expect the software to do the thinking for them. I have noticed from the deflections that Peter does not have a solid grasp of the FEA module. I expect that he is similarly lost with the CFD module.

The result outputs from both of these modules need to be carefully considered - there is more to it than looking at the numbers and hoping it will work.


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