I have never understood this.

Back in 1986 a friend of mine had a student who wanted to purchase a (brand new) high performance single in the midst of his PP training. His student ended up buying one of the last new T-210s off the line.

He never seriously considered a Bonanza because the Beechcraft people would not return his phone calls nor those of his CFI.

This has been going on for a long time. You must really believe in your product if refuse to answer sales inquiries.

By all accounts, Beech hasn't behaved as if it really wanted to be in the piston business since Raytheon acquired it in 1980. Olive Ann Beech stopped running the company and joined the Raytheon board at that point...the '84 panel redesign on the 36 and 58 was the last sign of product marketing life on the piston line. They've done NOTHING since, zero...except terminate products. They would still be selling steam gauges and Bendix/King if they hadn't been forced into Garmin by the competition.

With big corporate ownership and Hawker gone maybe things will be different, but over 30 years with zero innovation is one hell of a legacy to overcome.

30 years with no innovation and the G36 and G58 are still not out of date! G1000 avionics and soon to be updated to G2000 avionics. A 10 year old A36 sells for more than a 5 year old Cirrus.

Beechcraft marketing may be terrible but there products are still in a class of their own.

You're right! This thread (and Jason's logic) got me to start looking at used Cirrus aircraft at Controller and TAP. I was really shocked at the number of Cirrus aircraft for sell for less that $200K (many for less than $160K). The comparable A36/G36s are a good 50 to 100% more.

So, what does that mean? I don't know! Maybe the anti TSA/Frequent Flyer types are buying new Cirrus airplanes but the market for the used Cirrus depends on us cheaper types for their market share. (Thus the collapse in price)

Probably my assumption is totally off base but I managed to contribute once again to this thread!

I was looking at airplanes between 8 and 12 years old.

I consider Cirrus the "Apple" of the GA market while Beech is the "Microsoft". The vision of Cirrus has truly been phenomenal and we have all benefitted from them.

That doesn't necessarily make them a better product. In fact, I think that Beech made such a good product that they basically put themselves out of business because so many of them are still flying after 40 and 50 years. Cirrus, on the other hand, is producing a product with a finite life span which will create repeat buyers of new products as the older ones wear out. Thus, they don't have a better product but they do have a much smarter business plan.

I've only flown in a Cirrus once and it was a pretty cool experience. The SR22 felt like a sports car and was a lot of fun to fly. I wonder why, then, are so many Cirrus' for sale relative to their total market cap? I personally know of several current and former Cirrus owners who either have their planes for sale or have sold them. Is it because of the UL or maintenance cost (I hear that the annuals on them are quite expensive)?

You're right! This thread (and Jason's logic) got me to start looking at used Cirrus aircraft at Controller and TAP. I was really shocked at the number of Cirrus aircraft for sell for less that $200K (many for less than $160K). The comparable A36/G36s are a good 50 to 100% more.

So, what does that mean? I don't know! Maybe the anti TSA/Frequent Flyer types are buying new Cirrus airplanes but the market for the used Cirrus depends on us cheaper types for their market share. (Thus the collapse in price)

Probably my assumption is totally off base but I managed to contribute once again to this thread!

I was looking at airplanes between 8 and 12 years old.

Annuals are no issue, it's a very simple plane and most shops are now working on the aircraft, as opposed to a few years back.

Look at the numbers of Cirrus sold, thousands in a very short period relatively speaking. There is simply a huge number of them out there - I love this, allowed me to get my hands on a 600 hour SR22 loaded with options for $180K.

AG

If you're looking at sub-$200k Cirri, you're looking at SR20s (unless your name is Alejandro).

That being the case, there are two reasons the "comparable" Bonanzas are going for more.

1) A new Bo costs a lot more than a new SR20 for a reason (performance, 6 seats, etc.). There really isn't such a thing as a Bo that is comparable to an SR20.

2) The Cirri are designed and marketed toward the new pilot with lots of dough looking to buy a new airplane for $500k or $700k, and they kill the Bonanza in the new market. The market for $150k used airplanes represents a very different buyer: one that cares less about the Cirrus' strengths and more about the Bonanza's (and one that spends all day commenting on BT ).

There is not one trip that I have not been able to take in my F33 or Baron because of the avionics (Garmin 530/430). I have never flown with WAAS and it has never kept me from anything. But, but, it will fly the hold by itself they say....

I recently did recurrent training with Waldo Anderson (a true Gentleman) who has flown over 50 years. I couldn't even guess how many general aviation hours he has flown. He said he can count the holds he has had to do with two hands.

We use avionics and such as an excuse to not fly. The reason we don't fly is that we don't train and are not comfortable with the elements we have to contend with. An $800K airplane will not cure that, a stick shaker will not cure that, SVT will not cure that, a turbine engine will not cure that. Train more and you will fly your 40 year old airplane more. YMMV.

Like most companies and products that actually evolve - like Apple, if love your IPad 1 you probably have an IPad 3 now. Cirrus is more normal than other Aviation companies. More like a car company. I would always want the latest generation. If you bought a g36 in 2007 why would you need a 2013? If you bought an 07 sr22 you defintely might upgrade to a 13.

Who said that they aren't flying and aren't comfortable with the elements?

Cirri don;t get sold for this reason. They get sold because they're fast and they look great inside and out. To the noob with $700K..... that's huge

All the screens in my PC12 look like chicken scratch compared to that Cirrus I flew.

Garmin makes the best product all the way up to and including the big jets. The others are losing ground.

The new Cirrus looks nice but the G36/58 looks even better and is better built. The only thing Cirrus has going for it is the parachute.

Being a gearhead I had an analogy that came to mind regarding technology supplanting skill - (if I missed a similar comment scanning all 14 pages my apologies in advance).

Sports car enthusiasts bemoaned automatic transmissions and anti-lock brakes in a similar fashion to the comments on Cirrus' advances. "Too much automation", "not enough driver input" the choir sang, but low and behold they provided true safety and performance benefits and are now standard in both mainstream passenger and race cars. Without a doubt, fully automated highways are in our future, maybe not in the next few years, but easy to see where we're going. Aviation will likely (or is) follow a similar path. I love antique hardware as much as anyone, but the path forward is clear. Just sayin'.

This thread has been purged of pettiness.

Debate the issue, not the people.

I'll put my mission capability up against a new SR22 any day of the week. Over the course of one year up against the Cirrus it will have done nothing my 40 year old Baron won't do. I am talking about how people actually fly their airplanes not how they say they fly it on the internet.