BeechTalk - BT

Username Protected · **Posted:** 21 Oct 2023, 14:02

Username Protected wrote:

That’s nuts. I pay $385 total for my Williams program. Everyone says I am getting ripped off and you are saying reserves alone on a pair of JT15 is the same? Something does not add up.

Mike

The short answer is you are not getting ripped off, especially when you consider the fuel efficiency of those engines. I call Williams the "benevolent dictator" so I get the criticism, but they built a better mousetrap and figured out how to make it into a subscription model.

There are nearly 2500 Citations with Williams engines on them, the market has spoken.

The math is pretty simple for the JT15D-5A's, use average overhaul cost, add HSI and normal maintenance, divide that by 3500 (TBO)

The other method is to use VREF's numbers, which are $171 an hour per engine, sometimes their numbers are accurate, other times they're off.

You are paying $385 per hour times 4000 or 5000 hours, but at 5000 hours that's still just $2M... in these crazy days of engine overhauls, that doesn't seem that far out of line... and you have the insurance aspect.

I will get on my soap box for a minute, it really ticks me off that those engines can't come off and be used on another model of airplane. That is an example of Williams not being benevolent.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 21 Oct 2023, 14:05

The little baby engines on the Mustang are over $200 a side

Username Protected · **Posted:** 21 Oct 2023, 14:38

Well I’m sure glad we all agree and have a final meeting of the minds. :deadhorse:

Username Protected · **Posted:** 21 Oct 2023, 14:39

Username Protected wrote:

and completely understandable You're a broker, you don’t know squat about Legacy Citation maintenance. End of story.

I will be the first to admit that I'm am way rusty on 500's and 501's, so I think you may be talking about those airframes, if so, yes you are correct.

Exactly

My job is to look for flaws and paint the whole picture.

Sorry, that's what I do.[/quote]

Sorry. "Squat" is definitely a little caustic. But as I said, understandably, you aren't a Mike T or a Mike C.

I think any of us tend to paint a rosy pic on the plane we have at the moment. MT makes it look easy. MC makes it look like pie in the sky. Charles loves the M600 for what it does. In reality? MC has an engine go and its a whole different ball game. No matter what you pay to play.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 21 Oct 2023, 14:53

Mike - your math on jets ignores the fact that your low costs don’t stay low when you go above your LuMP program hours.

I fly 200 hours per year. Once you go above 150 hours per year the jet maint costs and then fuel burn bill start to really jack up costs. Even flying long legs, the 560 burns almost exactly 2x fuel as Piaggio which is slightly better per mile than mu2.

The old legacy jets are cheap doesn’t seem to work well at 180-250 hrs per year.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 22 Oct 2023, 00:11

Username Protected wrote:

The little baby engines on the Mustang are over $200 a side

To clarify Tony I think you are talking about the pair. My Mustang engines are $126 per engine. To be fair there are different program options and I have the least expensive of them.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 22 Oct 2023, 00:32

Username Protected wrote:

We had the A-model M600, SN 38, and it had some growing pains. Was delivered non-FIKI, but additional flight testing and they made some mods, so had quite a bit of work done on it to upgrade to FIKI. Then they came out with a CG kit to move the CG forward for better cabin loading. we did that. Then someone discovered a bad machined rear spar found in a bin, and we had the grounding AD, which in the end did not affect any airplane flying, but still required minimally invasive testing on our bird to ensure the rear spar was spec. Then someone realized that someone had accidentally put M500 rivets in the firewall of some of the M600's and another service event to pull the engine and re-rivet the firewall. I think all that work made our plane a little buggy.

Piper took that one back with a generous trade and we got a B-model SN 98 that has been dialed in and kick the tires and light the fires pleasure to fly. They are now out with the C or D models, which I would like to have, but our plane has been exceptional in reliability so not much pressure for us to upgrade. Having a plane that still has factory support, is still being made, and has more technology in the panel than an iPad can bring is a different experience.

I also think these modern turbines are safer for most GA pilots than to fly than a legacy jet single pilot IFR. Much less to go wrong and has much more robust avionics systems, which is where many turbine aircraft accidents start. I flew on the same day that this Citation had in in-flight break up in SLC after the pilot just left a safety conference. Were pretty benign conditions by Utah standards. Was loss of some aspects of his mix and match panel resulting in LOC killing him and his wife. This doesn't happen in an M600 for so many reasons. The redundancy is over the top. There are 3 large glass panel AI's, 4 if you hit reversionary mode, 3 ADC's, 3 ADHR's, 3 electrical busses and a backup on its own power supply, the rock solid digital GFC700. Even if he tried to roll it over the ESP would kick in and prevent the plane from exceeding bank angle, if he still tried to do it, the Autopilot would annunciate that it was taking over "Autopilot engaging" and he could have just sat back and took a deep breath, rather than the terrifying moments as he got more and more out of control.

https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20160118-0

Charles, what are the incremental improvements to the M600 since your B model? Hard to find a list of them.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 22 Oct 2023, 07:47

Username Protected wrote:

The little baby engines on the Mustang are over $200 a side

To clarify Tony I think you are talking about the pair. My Mustang engines are $126 per engine. To be fair there are different program options and I have the least expensive of them.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 22 Oct 2023, 07:51

Charles, what are the incremental improvements to the M600 since your B model? Hard to find a list of them.[/quote]

Chuck has #98 and from 81-99 there was a major Garmin update to the G3000NG,also the fuel controller was changed to a Woodward which reduced starting temperatures and is much more reliable.Serial #100 and up got the HALO (Garmin Autoland) system,Garmin surface watch,autothrottle and also major interior improvements.Piper came with a new warranty program called Ultimate Care Program and that includes 5 years of maintenance and 5 annuals,7 years of Pratt warranty,and also includes 1 replacement starting battery.Somewhere around #175 the GRA 8000 radar was added and that can be installed in all G3000NG M600s.Serial #198 and up received the new nose landing gear and that can be added to all M600s,I know that there are other improvements but I have not seen a printed doocument.
I can scan the list I have at work tomorrow if you want a copy,just PM me with your Email.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 22 Oct 2023, 08:28

can you talk more about the new nose gear? what was done to improve it?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 22 Oct 2023, 09:02

This conversation addresses the accounting aspect but ignores much of the aesthetic/ramp appeal aspect of owning a jet. That's important to most people (probably not Mike C)

Jets, even Citations, are cool and sexy when compared to a propeller driven airplane. Jets also project an image of safety/confidence/success to your passengers that no Meridian can do. For many people, ramp appeal is a HUGE motivating aspect in purchasing a Legacy Citation over a turboprop.

For the vast majority of people that buy one of these airplanes from me, it's a toy and was paid for with cash. Most people are flying these 100ish hours a year so whether it costs $800 or $1000 an hour or whatever is a rounding error.

So don't ignore the intangible aspect that JETS ARE COOL and this has a definite value to most people.

On a side note, Williams engines really don't burn that much less fuel than a JT15D (we're talking 5-10 GPH total). The program 150/hr minimum kills you with these.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 22 Oct 2023, 09:03

Username Protected wrote:

can you talk more about the new nose gear? what was done to improve it?

Piper designed the new nose gear for turf,they have a large customer base in Brasíl that apparently own large farms with grass runways and the M600 was not certified for turf.Many of us M600 owners believe that this is really a CYA product and that it should have been done when the M600 was certified.The Malibu had a gross weight of. 4100 and the M600 is 6000 and the landing gear had not been updated.I am sure that Piper will disagree but there were around 8 runway excursions that had nose gear collapses and I believe that Piper needed to do an update.There were several service bulletins that addressed tire pressures and the steering linkage rollers as well as nose gear angle.What the new nose gear does is it moves the front axle 1/2 aft which gives the nose gear 1/2 degree of castor and when the front tire touches down the tire centers because of the castor,also the gear is much larger and stronger.I have installed it on my M600 and it taxies better (straighter) and I have tried in a crosswind landing leaving the rudder input in and the nose wheel will center immediately.I never had any real landing issues before the new NLG was installed but the new one is much better.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 22 Oct 2023, 09:13

Here is a picture of the new gear,I do not have a picture of the old one.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 22 Oct 2023, 09:27

Username Protected wrote:

I'm still trying to figure out why anyone is comparing 30 and 40 year old Citations to new M600s.

Because that is a legitimate choice for what to buy.

For the rare "new only" guy, he is in a new M600 but he compromised his capabilities to do that.

For the "most bang for the buck" guy, he will consider the Citation.

In the current high interest rate environment we are in, the cost of capital is a major factor in the true total cost of ownership. The extra $2M in the M600 is being devalued rapidly as time passes, and that is a cost you have to consider. Further, the initial new market depreciation is non trivial. The cost of new is substantial in many ways.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 22 Oct 2023, 09:36

Username Protected wrote:

Mike - your math on jets ignores the fact that your low costs don’t stay low when you go above your LuMP program hours.

I fly 200 hours per year.

My LUMP allows 200 hours/year.

"This LUMP is designed for annual operating flight hours less than 200 flight hours."

200 hours of a 560 is about 300 hours of an M600, which is a lot of miles, about 75,000 nm.

This is more than I expect to use in a year.

Mike C.

Legacy Citation vs Turboprop