You claim to know the prices, so let's test this.

My plane is 560-0149, N618K, previously N61GK.

I know, with reasonable assurance, the last 3 transactions of my plane, what it sold for, what date, and who bought it. The last one is obvious, that was me, and I've already publicly stated the price, so that's gimme. Can you tell us what the previous two prices were?

You claim, with an air of exclusive knowledge, that you know what the ACTUAL selling price of planes are, even the off market ones, so let's see if this is true. No registry paperwork contains that information generally, so you would have to have some rather interesting inside knowledge of all these transactions that are generally kept confidential. This makes me suspicious that you don't actually know this data since I see no evidence that supports that assertion.

I see 3 possible outcomes:

Evading the question with some lame excuse.

A wrong answer.

A right answer.

I'm willing to be impressed, so give it your best shot, professional hunter that you claim to be.

Mike C.

Are you actually buying them yourself and flipping them?

I suspect you meant to say your CLIENTS regularly buy airplanes needing work.

I thought you said those planes didn't sell.

Mike C.

If you don't have the knowledge, you will be hurt economically no matter how new the plane is.

The newer the plane, the most expensive things are generally. I bought a used hydraulic pump for $200 and there were plenty to choose from. A CJ2 hydraulic pump is $35K from Textron and there are few used ones available.

The CJ series needs $25K precoolers every 9 years and some planes are AOG waiting for them. My precooler is original with the airplane and not a life limited part.

My plane has a LUMP that extends phase 1-4 to 3 years, and phase 1-5 to 6 years. This is a huge reduction in costs and down time, and lowers wear and tear on the airplane. CJs don't get that.

My plane is maintained by my local shop so I don't spend time ferrying it to a service center and can oversee the work more closely. Finding local shop who have worked on legacy Citations is more common than CJs. My shop maintains abut 8 legacy Citations as well as 4 BeechJets.

There are a lot more examples.

It is a common myth that the older Citations cost more to maintain, but that isn't reality.


Are you a member of Citation Jet Pilots CJP?

The forum provides owner to owner details and help to Citation owners and is worth every penny. Owners find out things that save them many thousands of dollars per year. Even for the "here are the keys and a blank check, call me when done" types, it is very worthwhile.

CJP is absolutely the place to be informed about owner flown Citations, both legacy and CJ series. This will save you money, and make your flying safer. You can also vet any advice you are getting. There are a lot of opinions out there to choose from.

I get that owning a Citation is intimidating, there is a lot to know, but having a support group helps a lot. I've learned a lot from CJP and I try to contribute back to the group when I can.

Good luck with whatever you get, but you can't avoid getting an education with a newer plane. That will either come usefully before you need it, or expensively right after you needed it.

Mike C.

Actually Chip shared some pricing data with me today. It’s a huge help to a buyer to understand what’s going on in the market.

Are you actually buying them yourself and flipping them?

I suspect you meant to say your CLIENTS regularly buy airplanes needing work.

I thought you said those planes didn't sell.

Mike C.

Hey Mike, not currently on CJP. I’m a a former CJ2 owner. I agree CJP is great source of information.
In my experience when it comes to turbine toys the older the airframe the more it costs to operate it. I agree that in certain situations the delta may not be as big as you think. Maybe that’s your point comparing a V to the CJ parts.

Legacies aren’t for everyone. I contend it takes a more involved owner to close that operating expense delta. Throw in the hassle/cost of overhauling non program engines and modernizing avionics all add up.

At the end of the day these are first world issues. You buy what meets your mission and budget.

I don’t get your argument: he just gave you real time stats on what the REAL market did in the last 6 months. Your “market” isn’t represented until you buy one. As such your “market” is make believe.

You claim to know the prices, so let's test this.

My plane is 560-0149, N618K, previously N61GK.

I know, with reasonable assurance, the last 3 transactions of my plane, what it sold for, what date, and who bought it. The last one is obvious, that was me, and I've already publicly stated the price, so that's gimme. Can you tell us what the previous two prices were?

You claim, with an air of exclusive knowledge, that you know what the ACTUAL selling price of planes are, even the off market ones, so let's see if this is true. No registry paperwork contains that information generally, so you would have to have some rather interesting inside knowledge of all these transactions that are generally kept confidential. This makes me suspicious that you don't actually know this data since I see no evidence that supports that assertion.

I see 3 possible outcomes:

Evading the question with some lame excuse.

A wrong answer.

A right answer.

I'm willing to be impressed, so give it your best shot, professional hunter that you claim to be.

Mike C.

Uhhhh; not even close. Who on this thread has never apologized for anything and NEVER EVER admitted failure? Lol

I finally get it: Chip; you’ve run square into the “legacy Citation Cult Club”.

I find it curious Chip doesn't make use of CJP. That would help broaden his understanding. It is clearly an ecosystem which he isn't very familiar with.


Your beliefs are widespread, but that doesn't make them true.

The newer planes have more expensive parts, more onerous inspections, and lesser choices when it comes to shops and part supplies. Most CJs less than 20 years old are on expensive programs for engines, parts, avionics, and labor. Those program costs are routinely jumping in price well above inflation and are a constant sore point with CJ owners.

If CJs are so much less to maintain, why are the programs adding up to nearly $1K per hour? I'm nowhere near that number.


To be fair, you have to include the ransom payments you make to Williams, now approaching $500/hour. If you fly less than 150 hours a year, the effective rate is even higher since you then pay for hours you didn't use.

As for avionics, I have all new Garmin. Painless to take care of, and I pay $800/year for all of my database updates. Collins? Honeywell? Universal? Those are cheaper to keep? No fracking way. The database subs can cost close to $10K/year for those! And if you need a box repaired, 5 digits is the starting price.

I will admit the Primus 1000 systems on Bravo, Ultra, and Encore are the worst. They are first generation integrated EFIS systems with a lot of unreliable displays that are super expensive to fix. That's one reason I have a V and not an Ultra. When a digital autopilot is certified (Garmin and Genesys have programs underway), I will upgrade to that, too, and drop another 100 lbs and remove boxes I don't need to maintain.


I did and I need to thank people like you for that. I saved a lot because these myths exist which drives away potential buyers. I can honestly say Chip, as a vocal spreader of these myths, helped save me a lot of money on my airplane.

Mike C.

The only myth is Mike claiming to run his V for less than $1000 an hour because he conveniently leaves out engine reserves.

Jan is right, tunnel vision and a need to always be right.

I talked to Jason Crandall the other day, I forgot to ask him if he ever got the “you were right phone call”

P.S. We have officially added the Cirrus SF50 to our list of acquisition services, we’ll need to come up to speed on the aircraft, the market and the operational details.

We are waiting for a launch client to hire us and will offer them a reduced fee to walk through our first Cirrus acquisition with us. I think it’s probably stupid simple, but you never know that for sure until you actually do it.

Engine programs are for suckers, there I said it.

Come on! I’ll help you any way I can. We have a situation where 99% of the time the buyer is not represented, the industry needs more buyer’s agents.

You’ve got the right idea, I tell every client “You have demonstrated your ability to make good decisions, that’s how you have been successful enough to purchase an airplane, my job is to give you good information, so you can make good, informed decisions”

The listing agents and brokers in this industry are too often just like Mike, they want to convince you that whatever they have to sell is the best.

The fact is that every aircraft has its strong points and weak points, and many of those change depending on the owner’s mission. Sellers never want to ask questions, they typical want to provide information, about their aircraft and why it is perfect for you.

Ask questions.

Engine programs are for suckers, there I said it.