and yet, in the 11 days that have elapsed since the beginning of this thread, Cirrus has delivered two more of these monstrosities...

Oh, the horror! Make it stop!

Until it doesn't.

That is why all those checks are still in the SF50 checklist.


And you do it on the SF50 to back up the automation in case it fails.

I actually DON'T do it manually. The fuel controller on my engines, despite having no electronics, programs the fuel schedule so the start is done right. I am only monitoring in case it gets it wrong (which it never has so far in my experience). This is EXACTLY the same as the SF50 with FADEC, you monitor it in case it gets it wrong.


And yet not a single requirement to monitor and check its operation has been removed from the SF50 checklist. Not one. You are literally looking at the exact same parameters, light off, temperature, N1 rotation, oil pressure.

The workload on the pilot remains the same.

Perfect illustration of how automation often doesn't change the pilot workload due to its possible failure.

Here is a FADEC equipped engine after a start failure (CJ4 at KLCK in 2014)

Despite having a FADEC, the Williams engines seem to be far more sensitive to start conditions than the JT15D. The above incident is not the only one for the Williams and I don't know of one for the JT15D (though surely one does exist?).

FADEC faults also cause dispatch problems. Some operators carry the data cables and adapters (about $2K BTW) and a laptop with the software to reset certain FADEC faults that would otherwise prevent dispatch. The logs I reviewed for an FJ44 equipped S550 showed FADEC issues about 2 to 3 times per year throughout its history.

And then they do fail:

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... el-failure

And there is also the infamous dual FADEC failure of the Eclipse EA500 at KMDW that had the pilot dead stick the airplane back to the runway after it nearly killed them on the first landing.

Just because something is new and automated doesn't make it always better, easier, or safer.

Mike C.

Can you dumb this down for me? We don’t move our throttles when we are starting the engines on the phenom. Just turn the switch to start. Is this what’s removing the fuel cutoff and introducing fuel on legacies? What happens if you move the throttle forward at 4% or 20%?

Chip-

The throttle movement opens the cutoff and adds fuel.

4% - expensive fireworks
20% - it won’t spin that fast without fuel

It’s a no brainer (if in doubt, wait another second). The difference is that the pilot can’t hurt a normal start FADEC engine through incompetence, but he can damage a non-FADEC if he has a major brain fart. Some pilots take comfort in the automation backup.

It’s easier than starting a piston, but you can’t destroy a piston engine during startup even if you’re a complete idiot. Pilots who are nervous starting pistons buy FADEC Jets.

Yes, the FADEC is much higher likelihood of leaving you stranded. Any little glitch and it faults out, sometimes hard that requires special equipment and software to clear.

Read the CJP thread on the Williams cable and software kit to reset them and a fair number of folks have had one or more cases where the FADEC was faulted out. Those who invested in the cables, software, and laptop to be able to reset them can recover. Example statements:

"We carry it. Have used it once in 6 years. At the time we needed the kit, it was "priceless""

"I have the kit and needed it in Miami for an odd fadec fault caused (Williams said) by bumping a throttle during the power on self test"

"First time error was caused by line man error during a GPU start. I didn't have but Team CJ knew guy at airport with one. I called him, and it turned out he was already enroute to the airport and lent me his which got me going. After that I bought one and carry with and have had to use it once. They used to come as standard equipment with the early models."

"I carry computer and Fadec Equipment on board. Have had to use it once . Its a life saver."

"Needless to say, I did not have the FADEC Kit, nor did he. Luckily, one was available in Indy and they drove it down Sunday morning and cleared the fault message."

"Problem is when you do get a hard FADEC fault you are AOG until you can get it cleared. With the PC and cable you can often work through a problem with Williams over the phone and get it cleared."

"A bad GPU caused a FADEC fault on my CJ3, and cost me a 5 hr delay on departure until the Textron mobile unit could get cables to me to clear the fault. $1395 cost for cables would have been well worh it."

"When he powered the system back up, the FADEC message appeared. He could not clear it without the EMT kit."

"Recently i had a fault and didn't have the EMT kit"

"I had this issue a few weeks ago"

"In the last 30 days, I have had a crash course on using the Williams EM cable kit. In both cases the root cause was a GPU that disconnected unexpectedly."

"Yesterday, I was able to identify, communicate with Williams and clear out a fault. I was back in the air in less than 1 hr. If I did not have these tools and knowledge it would have easily been a lengthy multi day delay and a cost far exceeding the EMT kit."

As you can see, not isolated cases. A GPU dropping off line can cause your FADEC to fault out and ground your airplane. Not so with a mechanical fuel controller.

Both the FADEC and the mechanical FCU require pilot monitoring of the start. Says so in both checklists. A pilot is an idiot if they ignore that requirement. Maybe the instances of hot start are less in FJ44, but they are certainly not common in JT15D. I don't personally know of any cases in JT15D and it starts so cool and easy that there would have to be some serious fault to get a hot start.


I've never seen numbers, but I know the FJ44 engine fire on start is an issue and is not an isolated case. The example picture above required ARFF to put it out, too, it didn't stop burning with fuel shutoff and with fire bottle discharge.


Find an engine fire for a Citation JT15D.


That's fine, but your workload to start it is not meaningfully different. If the start workload on a legacy Citation is an issue for a pilot, they shouldn't be flying anything let alone a jet.

Mike C.

Maybe. At 4%, the engine probably survives. I bet it would borescope and be just fine.

The real fiasco is the pilot who moves the lever to idle BEFORE start button. That will be an impressive flame shooting out the back. Now that's expensive!


Correct, about 13-14% is all you will get. Starter can't put out any more.


Sure they can. Ask the owner of the CJ4 I posted a picture of with the burned tail. That was pilot error.

Perhaps they put too much trust in the computers and not enough thinking on their own.


Sure they can. Over prime, induction fire, hull loss.


Maybe that's why those airplanes have more trouble than one would expect?

As soon as someone feels "protected" by some device in an airplane, their lack of awareness leads to higher risk.

Mike C.

Starting a turbine engine with or without FADEC is ridiculously simple. Prob not worth the debate. But personally, I like having control over fuel and fire. And in my PT6, 2 separate ways to get fuel to the engine, just in case the FCU takes a nap. If anyone wants a FADEC PT6, hear there is a real good deal on one at the bottom of the Pacific. OK, not fair.

Point is a VJ is really no more simple than a twin jet. They are both super easy to fly.

The guys that buy a VJ because they think it’s easier than a CJ to fly are being lied to.

Mike

It doesn't matter how easy it is to fly... it matters how easy the insurance company THINKS it is to fly!

I've got experience in most of the early Citations, from the 501SP to the V. Been dealing with Vision Jet customers since the plane first flew. The guys buying a Vision Jet are moving up from Cirrus SR22T's for the most part. This is a first step into the jet world. They don't want or need more capabilities than the VJ offers. They also want new, with a warranty, service support, and training, that you can't readily get in the old jet world. Their spouses want the chute and Auto Land. You can't get that anywhere else.

When they can step from an SR22T into a brand new twin jet that has the same VJ features, at a similar price point, well then you'll have a new twin jet customer.

So what’s the insurance cost for a VJ?

I can’t imagine it’s much less than what I pay for my Citation.

Mike

It's definitely more than you pay for your Citation, anytime you go over $3M in hull value the insurance jumps. It's the fact that a SR22 pilot can transition to the Cirrus Jet that makes it work.

I'm no expert on the Cirrus line, but I'm under the impression that guys with a couple hundred hours in SR22's are transitioning into the VJ.

My neighbor pays over 30k on his VJ

Insurance: $30K
Minimum 150 hours of programs: $90K
Cost of money on $3.5M hull: $280K

You are at $400K per year before you fly your first hour.

That $1100 per DAY.

Mike C.

Insurance: $30K
Minimum 150 hours of programs: $90K
Cost of money on $3.5M hull: $280K

You are at $400K per year before you fly your first hour.

That $1100 per DAY.

Mike C.