Username Protected wrote:
Hey Mike - sent you an email offline , but curious if there is a discussion somewhere here about the C560V vs P180II , have another buddy that is in the same bucket.. he is tired of getting passed by ducks, clouds, and anything else faster than his KingAir.. :) So starting the evaluation process.. Would love to point him there if it exists
A King Air scores badly on the speed/cost curve. In winter headwinds, and it can be brutal. On my V, headwinds are not really that big a deal. I've had 50 knot winds and the out and back times vary by less than 10 minutes.
Here is what I wrote you, somewhat edited:
---
The C560 will burn more fuel per mile than the Avanti. My block fuel usage is 177 GPH for the flights I made in 1H 2023. Fuel dominates my operating cost so far but I manage it well with CAA, contract fuel, airport/FBO selection, and tankering options. Lately, my average fuel price has been around $4.20. Figure about $750/hour for fuel.
Maintenance has been very low cost so far due to several factors, mostly my direct involvement in the process when it comes to vendor selections, part sourcing, etc. I'm still somewhat in the "fix the old problems" from when I bought it, which plagued me in 2021 but is starting to abate now, but even despite that, the costs have been low. RH hydraulic pump replaced for less than $2K, ACM rebuild for $15K, and the battery of 10,000 hour inspections for under $10K are the major expenses so far. Oh, I did have the hydraulic leak AOG event, $8K.
A great help is the LUMP inspection program (low utilization maintenance program) that Textron provides. Phase 1-4 every 3 years, phase 5 every 6 years. I did a phase 1-4 last year (about $15K all in), and my phase 1-5 is not due now until late 2025. There are other inspections due in between, but they are minor.
A tremendous help is that my maintenance is now on field. There are so many shops that know Citations that you can find local shops more easily. Not having to ferry the plane to the shop is a major cost and time saver that doesn't show up in "maintenance costs" for most accounting.
Parts sourcing is a major cost reducer. So many parts you can get after market or through salvage yards. For example, my RH hydraulic pump was $200 and came off a recently parted out Bravo. Not a typo. Textron actually sells a lot of parts very reasonably (though some are not). Their pricing for "normal" stuff, like tires and batteries, beats everybody else's that I can find.
Maintenance costs seem like they will be around $200/hour, which is fantastic, on par with my MU2 (which, BTW, I had to ferry for maintenance). I assume the Avanti is an airplane of such uniqueness that you have to go to a specialty shop for it. I mentally figure the maintenance will be higher than that long term, but so far, and even through the "fix it up" stage, it has not been.
I did a complete avionics overhaul, $240K. Given this adds substantial value to the airplane, it really isn't an "expense". It also saves me from a bunch of avionic maintenance of the old stuff (which is $$$).
Engine reserves are market value things to me so I don't put an hourly cost on that. I plan to fly past TBO with just doing HSI which gets you a lot of low cost engine hours. The engine times/cycles line up nicely for that.
Hangar, taxes, etc, are probably similar to Avanti. Insurance has been about the same as my MU2 or even less ($900K hull, $3M liability, $15K premium). Citations just don't crash very much. I have no idea what Avanti insurance would cost.
I had budgeted about $1500/hour to operate and I am well under that now that fuel prices have abated somewhat. I'm sure this is higher than an Avanti, but non operational costs (like training, maintenance ferrying, etc) do help mitigate that somewhat.
Operationally, the plane is fast, I can do 420 KTAS if I want. I typically fly it a touch slower, 400-410, maybe down to 390 if up high and hot. FL400/410 normal, sometimes to FL430, rarely to FL450. Only once did I cruise in the 30s, not economical (but wicked fast). Runway usage is fantastic. I thought I would lose some runway access over the MU2, but I really didn't. Ground rolls of 1500 ft for takeoff or landing are routine. That has been the single most impressive thing about this plane, the short runway usage.
There are numerous training options, sims and in plane. So far I have only done Flightsafety full motion sim. My last two 61.58 SPE recurrents were $6400/each, 4 days. There are a lot of day pilots you can hire if you need to, lots of CE-500 typed pilots out there.
There are things I miss about my MU2, such as low fuel flow and a robust cabin door, but it is very nice to have a plane with a much larger ecosystem. Passengers REALLY like the Citation over the MU2. The Avanti cabin probably would please them as well.
I bought the V for range and thought the 9 seats would be a waste. Turns out, I have flown with 9 people on board. I've attached my flight log since I owned the plane so you can see all the missions, airports, and people counts.
I VERY rarely fly it solo, only 7 times in my entire ownership. I am flying it with more people aboard than the MU2, at least 1 more on average, maybe closer to 2 more. Loads of 6+ are not that unusual, 11 times so far.
My avionics upgrade gave me 380 lbs more useful load. Not a typo, actual before and after weighing. I have 1075 lbs useful load full fuel, but loaded for a 1000 nm flight, I have well over 2000 lbs useful load left. On top of that, there is a 400 lbs weight increase option which is just paperwork, so the plane is capable of hauling a massive amount. My ZFW is 12,200 lbs, or almost 3000 lbs cabin load. That's 330 lbs per seat, so NFL linemen sized folks.
Since my plane is so light on the nose, I don't run out of forward CG when loading up. This was a big issue prior to the avionics upgrade. I have the opposite problem, need ballast in the nose for 1 or 2 people aboard but can drop that when getting heavier. This has not been a big deal. Running near aft CG makes the plane faster, too.
With a jet, you may find reasons to go further. The still air range is about 1800 nm on the V when flown for max range. So you either get a lot of range, or you get a lot of load. The range/load profile will exceed the Avanati by quite a bit.
See my flight logs for "normal". My one flight with 9 aboard was KEHR to KLWM, about 800 nm. Probably could have done 1200 nm. Would have to run the numbers to be sure and will depend on whether we're moving football players or jockeys.
Mike C.
So starting the evaluation process.. Would love to point him there if it exists
